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Missing Moe Solos?

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Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

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In another thread, I was recently responding to a post by referring to a stooge-related website concerning Ted Healy and his background. At the bottom of the webpage, there were links to Moe, Larry, Curly, Shemp, etc ... so I clicked on Moe. While reading the info listed, I came across this passage:

Before answering Ted Healy's call in 1922 to become a stooge, Moe worked a blackface act with Shemp, touring the country. Besides stage work, Moe also appeared in 12 two-reel shorts with baseball great Hans Wagner.


Now, I know that here at the hallowed halls of ThreeStooges.net, we list seven solo appearances by Moe. THIS revered site lists 12 and makes NO mention of the seven listed here. My question is as stated on the thread title, (and may be best directed at the all-time-great Stooge guru, BeAStooge):
Are there Moe Howard solo shorts that are as yet "undiscovered", or are they gone forever, or just plain false?

Here is the website that contains the above quote:
http://www.stoogeworld.com/_Biographies/Moe.htm

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Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

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Here is my offering to try to begin to answer this topic. I’ve started by researching the time-frame of these would-be shorts:

This site (that I consider authoritative) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honus_Wagner states Hans Wagner, also known as Honus Wagner retired from baseball in 1917 as the National League record holder in career hits, doubles, triples, runs, RBI, stolen bases, and games played.

From The Three Stooges, An Illustrated History by Michael Fleming – “He (Moe) left home in 1914 at the age of *fifteen and would never return to school. His dream took him to the banks of the Mississippi River, where he scammed his way into the theater company of a showboat called the Sunflower. He began by doing odd-jobs but got the baptism-of-fire training given by the live theater. Soon he was playing all kinds of roles, even sixty-and-seventy-year-old characters. Shakespeare, blackface, Moe Horwitz took any role he could get. … After a couple of seasons on the boat, Moe rejoined his brothers, (Shemp and Babe) and they worked on their routines around the neighborhood and became fixtures on the Coney Island boardwalk, hamming it up for their pals and passersby. It was there that they became friendly with a mischevious lad named Charles Earnest Lee Nash, who was later to take the stage name of Ted Healy.”

*Note – Moe’s birthyear is listed as 1897 in this book. The above quote states he left home in 1914 at the age of fifteen, yet 1914 minus 1897 equals seventeen, so there is a question as to the age Moe was when he left home. Also the statement “a couple of seasons” suggests Moe spent two years working on the showboat. This suggestion makes Moe, Shemp and Babe ages 19, 21 and 13 respectively in 1916.

Moe would therefore be about 20 years old in 1917 at the time Hans Wagner was finished with his active baseball career. This leaves a 5 year period in which Wagner was available for creating these alleged 2-reel shorts, since before that he was otherwise busy with being a baseball player, athough it is conceivable that he could have made the shorts in any off-season period before that. If Moe made these shorts with Wagner during an off-season shoot, (the above quoted “Moe took any role he could get”) Moe makes no mention of it, only the showboat stint. Also, if these shorts were made between 1917 and 1922, it is a good bet that they would be a silent film.
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Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

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 [doh]  No wonder nobody responded to this topic! Idiot that I am, this turns out to be common knowledge. From The Three Stooges, An Illusrtated History, just a couple pages over from my earlier quote, I found the answer:

"Aside from his goofy looks, Shemp was a talented comic, and he dragged his more serious brother (Moe) into the laugh market. Together they worked up a blackface act and even got to do some silent-film work. The brothers starred with Hall-of-Fame baseball player Honus Wagner in a series of twelve two-reel silent sports comedies, which thety filmed outside Pittsburgh. The result: it's a good thing Wagner could hit a curveball. He won five batting titles for Pittsburgh but was not Oscar material. 'I think,' said Moe, 'that perhaps they made banjo picks out of the film.' "

So it was NOT 12 missing Moe solos after all, but 12 Shemp/Moe shorts. These are apparently missing as well, since they do not appear in our database. However, even Moe didn't know the actual disposition of these two-reel stinkers, so perhaps they may still be alive somewhere in a vault or closet. My suspition is, though, that they are gone forever.
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Offline Dunrobin

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I've known for some time that Moe appeared in a number of silent shorts (although I didn't realize Shemp was in them too), but I've never seen them listed anywhere or any data at all about them.  It would be great if we could uncover the information, even if the shorts themselves are long gone, as I'd still like to be able to list them in the database.

I was kind of waiting for Brent to respond on your question, as usually he'd know the answers if anyone does!   ;)

Quote
... if these shorts were made between 1917 and 1922, it is a good bet that they would be a silent film.
Make that a sure bet, Giff!  There weren't any talkies at all in that period.

It's a pity that there is probably nothing left of those.  It would be very interesting to see how a Stooge would come across with no sound.  ;D


Offline BeAStooge

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Circa 1909, Moe appeared as a child actor in a handful of shorts made at the Vitagraph Studios in Brooklyn.  These films no longer exist, and no existing documentation includes Moe in the credits.  Other than Moe's recorded recollections, which are scant, there is nothing to support a filmography entry.

Reportedly, Honus Wagner appeared in one of those 1909 Vitagraph comedies, and reportedly filmed a scene teaching a youngster (Moe?) how to swing a bat.  Again, no documentation, just an off-hand comment that Moe made at one time during one of his 1970s interviews.

1982, The Three Stooges Scrapbook includes a brief comment written by the Lenburg brothers that Moe appeared in a series of Honus Wagner shorts filmed in Pittsburgh.  In the early '90s at one of the Philadelphia Conventions, Joan Howard told me she did not know where the Lenburgs got that information; as co-author, it did not come from her, and she was not aware of anything in her father's papers that may have sourced the information.

Most likely... Jeff and Greg had Moe's comment about the possible 1909 short, discovered that Wagner reportedly made some shorts in Pittsboigh in 1919, and combined the two pieces into an undocumented, and probably inaccurate statement.

Skip to the book that the Benjamins of C3 commissioned Fleming to write in 2000.  Fleming added Shemp to the story, presumably because Moe and Shemp were playing the blackface vaudeville circuit in Pennsylvania in 1919.

Ref the imdb entry for SPRING FEVER (1919).  SPRING FEVER (1919) was a Harold Lloyd comedy filmed at the Hal Roach Studios in Culver City PA, costarring Snub Pollard.  Honus Wagner, Moe Howard and Shemp Howard are not in that film, nor was it filmed in Pittsburgh.  The usual imdb problem... anyone can register to submit data, imdb does not check or edit data, and makes it difficult for corrections to be submitted.  So that imdb entry continues to fuel the bullshit.

Rich Finegan has looked into the 1919 Wagner tales about Moe, and after a couple years, not one piece of corroborating information has been revealed; his research includes the Library of Congress, Vitagraph files at The Vitaphone Project, various silent film repositories like UCLA, etc.

- Moe's memories tell us about a handful of 1909 Vitagraph shorts he was in; probably true, but no documentation.

 - The 1919 Honus Wagner stories about Moe (and Shemp), pending proof, have no basis.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 09:54:33 AM by BeAStooge »


Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

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All this poop I've started has made me wonder about the authenticity of my collection of Stooge books. First, I found that little problem of Moe's age in 1914 in the Fleming book, then BeAStooge's comment about the Moe/Shemp thing added in Fleming's book. Is there a way that we good Stooger's here can create a list of reference material that would be considered "authoritative" or "canonical"?
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Offline Dunrobin

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All this poop I've started has made me wonder about the authenticity of my collection of Stooge books. First, I found that little problem of Moe's age in 1914 in the Fleming book, then BeAStooge's comment about the Moe/Shemp thing added in Fleming's book. Is there a way that we good Stooger's here can create a list of reference material that would be considered "authoritative" or "canonical"?

Funny - I thought that was the whole point of this site, Giff!    ;D


Offline BeAStooge

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Is there a way that we good Stooger's here can create a list of reference material that would be considered "authoritative" or "canonical"?

Moe Howard and the Three Stooges
The Three Stooges Scrapbook
The Complete Three Stooges
One Fine Stooge (due in 2006)

+ The Three Stooges Journal, issues published subsequent to Scrapbook, particularly the filmography and biographical research updates of Rich Finegan, Bill Cappello and Ed Shifres.  As new/clarifying information is discovered, The Journal will be on top of it.

Fleming's book was commissioned by C3, and its main research base was C3 files, which used to be Joan Maurer's files, which were the basis of Moe's autobiography and Scrapbook.  Fleming's is a  nicely packaged book, that's also a totally unnecessary and redundant waste of time.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 10:49:36 AM by BeAStooge »


Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

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Quote
Funny - I thought that was the whole point of this site, Giff!    ;D

I was referring to reference material that could be referred to when reference is required when a reference is made concerning some referred to comment made by the above referenced Stooges.
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Offline Dunrobin

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Quote
I was referring to reference material that could be referred to when reference is required when a reference is made concerning some referred to comment made by the above referenced Stooges.
When ya didn't know what you were talking about ya really had something there!   ;D

That's what I get for trying to make a smartass remark just before leaving for work.  When I read Brent's reply I realized what you had meant.
 [doh]


Offline Genius In the Lamp

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If I'm not mistaken, several of those Vitagraph movies were destroyed in a fire at the studio's warehouse.  As for any surviving prints, they're probably hidden in some vaults in Australia ... and even so, the odds of said prints being somewhat intact are microscopic.
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Offline BeAStooge

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Rich Finegan has looked into the 1919 Wagner tales about Moe, and after a couple years, not one piece of corroborating information has been revealed; his research includes the Library of Congress, Vitagraph files at The Vitaphone Project, various silent film repositories like UCLA, etc.

A footnote in The Three Stooges Scrapbook filmography lists one of Moe's childhood Vitagraph appearances, culled from Moe's memoirs.  In The Three Stooges Journal # 51 (Fall 1989 issue), Rich Finegan mentioned learning of another credit, a 1910 entry.  Neither is fully documented, but based on Rich's mention (and his information has always been solid), these two Vitagraph short subjects are now in this website's filmography...

 - WE MUST DO OUR BEST (1909)
 - FISH HOOKEY (1910)


Offline StoogeFanDan

Which film did Honus Wagner appear in with Moe teaching him about baseball?  Some sites say it is Spring Fever, and others mention it was in the 1909 film with Moe which could be "We Must Do Our Best".  After a little research on my part, I found the following websites with references to Spring Fever 1919.  If necessary, search each webpage for "Sping Fever".

References of Sping Fever 1919:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002935/
http://home.mindspring.com/~gearhard/pihof.html
https://robertedwardauctions.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=338
http://www.addictsports.com/baseball/archive/index.php/t-43575.html
http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=153416

Order here:
http://www.fesfilms.com/harold.html
http://picpal.com/videobrarynew2.html
http://www.a-1video.com/harold.htm

The film was recently up for bid on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6435069469&category=1476

StoogeFanDan


Offline FineBari3

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In the Fleming book (Three Stooges an Illustrated History), he mentions that Moe and Shemp belonged to a summer stock company called the Margurite Bryant Players, which was located east of Pittsburgh in the town of Jeanette (a really little town).

It says on the next page that this was when the Honus Wagner films were shot, and the dates given are 1921 and 1923 on those two pages.

Believe me, I was excited to hear that the Margurite Bryant Players were located near my hometown of Pittsburgh and that they did those films with Honus Wagner. I pracically freaked out when I saw that!

That book is the only mention I have found about Jeanette and also the Honus Wagner films. Someday I hopefully will research this stuff but I just cant seem to get motivated.
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Offline StoogeFanDan

I was born and raised in a small city which is 20 miles NE of Pittsburgh.  Jeannette is about 30 miles SE of Pittsburgh.  Moe and Shemp lived in Jeannette, PA in 1920-21.  The following article from last year (Nov. 2004) contains this and more information:
http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/entertainment/s_275877.html

Speaking of the Stooges appearing in Pittsburgh, the Stooges (Moe, Larry and Curly Joe) performed on the Steve Allen Show at the Holiday House in Pittsburgh in 1959.  The Holiday House was near but not in the city of Pittsburgh.  It was actually located in Monroeville, PA near the Monroeville Mall:
http://www.gatewaynewspapers.com/timesexpress/news/54347/
StoogeFanDan


Offline BeAStooge

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... the Stooges (Moe, Larry and Curly Joe) performed on the Steve Allen Show at the Holiday House in Pittsburgh in 1959. 


All three STEVE ALLEN SHOW appearances were at NBC in New York.

When the Stooges made their first guest shot Jan. 11, 1959, to perform "The Operation" sketch, Steve Allen's introduction mentioned that they had just finished breaking attendance records at the Holiday House.  (Available on the GoodTimes DVD, The Three Stooges: Lost Comedy Treasures.)