Moronika
The community forum of ThreeStooges.net

The Music Box (1932) - Laurel and Hardy

metaldams · 27 · 10403

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline metaldams

http://www.lordheath.com/index.php?p=1_230_The-Music-Box
http://www.laurelandhardycentral.com/musicbox.html
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0023251/?ref_=fn_al_tt_4

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2yxo1m

Watch THE MUSIC BOX in the link above



      I think I'm starting to detect a theme with these all time classic Laurel and Hardy shorts.  There really isn't much to say because their brilliance lies in their simplicity.  Not much of a story here, it's simply an adventure of the boys delivering a piano to an angry man's house.  Is it possible to milk a half hour scenario out of this and make it completely fascinating?  This film answers the affirmative.  Out of all he films I have ever reviewed or will continue to review, THE MUSIC BOX is the only one to win an Oscar, best short subject.  The horse carrying comics and objects in carriage and said comics struggling up a flight of stairs would inspire a certain group of comedians in AN ACHE IN EVERY STAKE.

      The best parts....the whole thing.  OK....Billy Gilbert gives just as high strung of performance here as he does in his two Stooge appearances, perhaps even more so here, if possible!  "I hate and detest pianos!"  The business with the stairs, well, the cameraman uses plenty of long angle shots to really show off the height involved in the slapstick proceedings, being a hat falling down, or Ollie falling down with the piano in that crate!  Speaking of the piano in the crate, that has to count as a character in itself.  The falls it takes and the unholy noise it makes is quite riveting!  Pulley gags, horse gags, falling off balcony into water gags, cop gags, Stan butchering the English language ( this time he butchers "overstepping your bounds"), and the kicker that diminutive Charlie Hall reveals tithe boys are all highlights.  Stan physically dragging his wobbly legs with his hands at the beginning, another highlight.  Simple plot, complex and funny slapstick, an all time classic.  Any comedy fan worth their salt should enjoy this one,

10/10

- Doug Sarnecky


Offline Tony Bensley

While not from a fresh viewing, as I agree that no reply to this 3 reel gem is a crime, here is a relevant posting I originally made on the Laurel & Hardy Forum November 15, 2013 (The Following Includes Spoilers!):


THE MUSIC BOX:  Observations & Opinions

THE MUSIC BOX was filmed by Hal Roach Studios and released by MGM on April 16 1932.

THE MUSIC BOX is essentially a remake of Laurel & Hardy's 1927 Silent Two Reeler, HATS OFF, the latter of which is their only team film for which to date, no known copies have yet officially surfaced (In spite of recent, though unsubstantiated rumors of a privately owned clip!), even in fragmented form!

On 2011's U.S. Based LAUREL & HARDY: THE ESSENTIAL COLLECTION set, only THE MUSIC BOX'S first two reels were transferred from it's original negative, while it's third reel derives from a dupe negative taken from a work print.  This is said to be because the third reel negative disappeared around 1983, which would have been about two years prior to the start of Richard W. Bann & Company's massive, 17 year (1985-2002) restoration of the Laurel & Hardy Hal Roach Sound Film Library.  Considering the challenge posed, the editing between the two prints is remarkably seamless, in my opinion!

THE MUSIC BOX was the first ever Comedy Short to win an Academy Award.  It won as Best Short Subject, Comedy for 1931-32.  Stan Laurel, Oliver Hardy and Hal Roach accepted the Oscar at the November 18, 1932 Academy Awards Ceremony.  It was at this same Ambassador Hotel Based Ceremony, that Hal Roach's good friend Walt Disney (Who also won an Honorary Oscar for the creation of Mickey Mouse!) accepted his own Academy Award for the 3 Strip Technicolor Animated Short, FLOWERS & TREES, which was the first Cartoon ever awarded an Oscar, this for the Best Short Subject, Cartoons Category.

Through the window of the shop where the Piano is purchased, we see a passing Streetcar (Marked Los Angeles Railway.), and a Retail Signs bearing the names "National Credit Jewelers" and "Star Outfitting Co. Credit Clothiers."  Having viewed THE MUSIC BOX many times over the years, I'm still not certain as to whether or not Rear Projection is employed here.  If so, this is certainly one of the more convincing examples of it to turn up in a Hal Roach Film during this period!  Two Roach Films of the period, the Zasu Pitts/Thelma Todd Two Reeler, RED NOSES (From March, 1932.) and the boys own June 1932 Short, COUNTY HOSPITAL feature two particularly horrid examples of the use of Rear Projection!  If not, the timely passing of the Streetcar (Especially given the briefness of the "Window" scene!) is indeed, a curious coincidence!

There are those that feel THE MUSIC BOX'S Stairs Sequence goes on too long.  Contrary to the common perception that this takes up most of the Film's length, the approximate time between the start of Stan & Ollie's first attempt up the stairs and the final illogical (Though completely in line with the boys' do it right at all costs philosophy!) descent down those same steps is a shade under 12 minutes.  The far more monotonous (In my opinion!) Boot Removal Scene in the 1931 Laurel & Hardy three reeler, BE BIG! lasts 13 minutes and 22 seconds!  In THE MUSIC BOX, the Stairs Sequence is punctuated by comic encounters with an obnoxious Nurse Maid, a Cop, and the infamous Professor Von Schwarzenhoffen, who we eventually discover was the intended recipient of the Music Box as a surprise Birthday Present from his Wife!

Gladys Gale, who played Mrs. Von Schwarzenhoffen appeared in just one other Laurel & Hardy Film, their last Starring Hal Roach Short from 1935, THICKER THAN WATER, in which she played an Auction bidder who leaves Ollie high and dry.  In THE MUSIC BOX, she's the buyer of the Piano with which the boys have such an arduous ordeal!  In my opinion, Gladys' pronounced overacting (Which is mercifully brief!) in the final scene is one of this gem's few weaknesses (Visible Suspension Wires during one of the Music Box's descents down the Stairs is another!)!  The concluding exploding pen gag could also be perceived as a bit of a throwaway.  As an added note, one might also wonder how the boys' two scenes with the Professor portrayed by James Finlayson would have played out!  However, these are all minor quibbles (Except perhaps, for the last one!) that shouldn't detract anyone from enjoying this true Film Classic! 

The songs we hear on the Piano Roll are snatches of Patriotic tunes, including I WISH I WAS IN DIXIE and THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER (The latter produces the Film's one poignant moment!), the latter of which, while composed by Francis Scott Key during the war of 1812, only became the official American National Anthem the year before THE MUSIC BOX was released!

Another fairly common question among Laurel & Hardy Scholars in recent years is does THE MUSIC BOX live up to it's lofty status as an Academy Award Winning Film?  In my opinion, my answer is a qualified yes.  There is certainly no doubt that this gem is well constructed, and is also a prime example of a Laurel & Hardy Short that makes for an ideal introduction for new fans!  While other characters do appear at just the right moments to not only prevent the 12 minute Stairs Sequence from growing stagnant, but greatly add to the comedic magic that takes place on those Steps; we are also treated to ample screen time in which Stan & Ollie are left to themselves, and more comedy gold is mined, with the Music Box (The Crate, at least!) effectively standing in as a third character!  However, whether or not THE MUSIC BOX is the best Laurel & Hardy Film ever made is subject to opinion, and very compelling arguments have been made in favor of other Laurel & Hardy Vehicles.  For instance, in my opinion, their earlier two reel gem HOG WILD (Also an ideal Laurel & Hardy introduction!) could have also taken home Best Comedy Short Oscar honors for 1929-30, had that category existed then!  There are also those who find THE MUSIC BOX'S goings off to be simply too frustrating (My lovely wife is unfortunately for me, among them!).  As a certain level of frustration exists in many of the boys' Films (Ultimately success is simply not part of Stan & Ollie's usual "Modus Operandi," though their succeeding on occasion was necessary in order to at least somewhat avoid the perceived monotony of consistent failures!), this is, in my opinion fairly revealing in terms of people who are simply not likely destined to be fans of the bulk of Laurel & Hardy's work!  In these instances, I find WAY OUT WEST to be an ideal panacea for it's great comedy, combined with what most viewers will find to be a most satisfying conclusion.

With that said, THE MUSIC BOX is, in my opinion, an ideal way to spend 29 minutes, and should make for ideal viewing for MOST hardcore and casual Laurel & Hardy Fans!

CHEERS!

9.5/10


Offline metaldams

Nice write up, Tony.  It never even occurred to me to think that anyone could find the stair scene too long.  Seems perfect to me, and for the variety you stated.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline Paul Pain

  • Moronika's resident meteorologist
  • Bunionhead
  • ******
  • The heartthrob of millions!
From about 5:00- 13:40 was amongst the most deplorable things I ever watched in my life, as in Besser horse epic bad.   Lilyan Irene is as much a human POS as Walter Long in ANY OLD PORT, and it got even more dissatisfying when the lady lies to the cop and Ollie ends up getting abused by the cop.  I almost turned off the short at this point it was awful...

From 13:40 on was an absolute riot.  I was in stitches and had to pause the short a couple of times just so I could laugh it off.  Any one else notice that Ollie really got stabbed by the nail?  Whatever... an interesting little comedy of abuse, but those 8:40 seconds are insufferable enough to make this one I won't likely watch again, thus...

7/10
#1 fire kibitzer


Offline Tony Bensley

From about 5:00- 13:40 was amongst the most deplorable things I ever watched in my life, as in Besser horse epic bad.   Lilyan Irene is as much a human POS as Walter Long in ANY OLD PORT, and it got even more dissatisfying when the lady lies to the cop and Ollie ends up getting abused by the cop.  I almost turned off the short at this point it was awful...

From 13:40 on was an absolute riot.  I was in stitches and had to pause the short a couple of times just so I could laugh it off.  Any one else notice that Ollie really got stabbed by the nail?  Whatever... an interesting little comedy of abuse, but those 8:40 seconds are insufferable enough to make this one I won't likely watch again, thus...

7/10
Hi Paul!

A most interesting take on the aforementioned 8 minute and 40 second (Or thereabouts!) stretch!  While I've always taken Lilyan's character as basically a de facto villain, whose inexcusable actions are necessary to move the story along, I also get how this can be hard for some to take!  I'm certainly never sorry when I see Stan kick her in the butt, as much as I don't normally like seeing that sort of abuse done to women by men!

CHEERS!  [pie]

Tony


Offline Umbrella Sam

  • Toastmaster General
  • Knothead
  • *****
    • Talk About Cinema
So I guess I’ll start by addressing the two problems I’ve seen addressed here with THE MUSIC BOX: the length of the stairs sequence and Lilyan Irene. Starting with the former, considering that I like the boot pulling scenes in BE BIG!, it should be pretty obvious that I like lengthy sequences depending on how I think they play out and I think THE MUSIC BOX plays out very well. Much like in BE BIG! we get an occasional break that keeps it from being monotonous and the timing from our main leads is just so excellent that it makes something that seems like a stupid idea on paper play out as one of the great short comedy masterpieces.

As for Irene, though it is a little annoying, the truth is that we often do come across these kinds of people in real life who enjoy the misery of others. I think a huge lasting appeal of Laurel and Hardy is that as ridiculous as their situations may be, their constant stream of bad luck does often relate to their audience. There are times where we may feel at a low point similarly to Hardy and I think it is partly because of this that we do find him so relatable. It’s sort of the same reason we may like Daffy Duck, because Daffy Duck often represents us as the viewers and we can relate to the pain he often feels because we have the same ambitions. Going back to Irene, she does represent the annoying person we may come across who likes ruining our day, but at the same time is not really an unbelievably unreasonable foe either. The cop doesn’t arrest Hardy, so it’s not like she made up some story that could have truly gotten him in that kind of trouble, and she’s not like Walter Long in ANY OLD PORT, who forces women to marry him against their wishes, or Blanche Payson in BELOW ZERO, who destroys Laurel and Hardy’s sole source of income during the time they need it most.

So now that I’ve got that out of the way, what are my thoughts on THE MUSIC BOX as a whole? I love this short and think that it is one of the best examples of how to make a three-reel comedy right. A lot of this is due to Laurel and Hardy’s comedic timing and not just in the stairs sequence either. Take for example the switching hats scene. We’ve seen this before, in some situations done better than others, but to me this is the definitive version. The first two times are done basically the same; Stan throws down the wrong hat and then it’s almost forgotten...until they both fall out the window and once again unintentionally switch hats. Once again, this brief break before bringing back the gag helps tremendously in keeping something that technically is monotonous and unimportant actually turn out as a wonderfully played out comedic routine.

I must admit that I have been missing Edgar Kennedy’s presence in these films and most of the Laurel and Hardy films have been missing that wonderful comically played anger that he had. Billy Gilbert, thankfully, makes up for that. Gilbert was an actor with an impressive array of credits, including the voice of Sneezy in SNOW WHITE AND THE SEVEN DWARFS as well as playing Herring in THE GREAT DICTATOR. To me, though, THE MUSIC BOX is Gilbert’s greatest performance. Everything with him is just wonderful, from his overreaction to the concept of walking around the piano to his unbelievable hatred of pianos to his salute during the Star-Spangled Banner. This is probably my favorite non-Laurel and Hardy performance in a Laurel and Hardy film.

One moment I especially love is after coming across Charlie Hall again, Laurel and Hardy decide to take the other way he suggested despite the fact that they already have brought up the piano, losing all the progress they’ve made once more. All those falls into the fountain get laughs from me as well. Really, it is hard to pick out favorite bits because there are too many to choose from; there are just so many great gags in here that really all I can say is you have to witness it for yourself.

I guess the one thing that does bother me is the ending with von Schwarzenhoffen’s wife. She ordered this piano as a present for her husband despite the fact that she knows her husband absolutely despises pianos? Honestly, though, this is so minor that I’m willing to forgive it. This short was definitely worthy of its Academy Award.

10 out of 10
“I’ll take a milkshake...with sour milk!” -Shemp (Punchy Cowpunchers, 1950)

My blog: https://talk-about-cinema.blogspot.com



Offline HomokHarcos

This is almost what I'd consider a perfect three reeler. They make a very entertaining 30 minute film with the simple premise of trying to deliver a piano, and they have many great ways that it goes wrong. From falling down the stairs, to the ladder and pulley scene, and to the scene when Ollie falls down the stairs and out the window. The most famous segment is when the piano falls down the big flight of stairs, but that makes up less than half of the film. The inside scene is great too, when they all pause for the Star Spangled Banner. End in the end the piano gets destroyed, but the laugh is not on Stan and Ollie, but rather Billy Gilbert. This would be the first of two Hal Roach shorts to win an Academy Award, the other being the Our Gang short Bored of Education.


Offline NoahYoung

Since I don't like 3-way ties, I would have to say this is my second favorite L&H short, and my third favorite L&H film.
Only SONS OF THE DESERT and HELPMATES are ahead of it.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline ChrisBungoStudios

The horse carrying comics and objects in carriage and said comics struggling up a flight of stairs would inspire a certain group of comedians in AN ACHE IN EVERY STAKE.

Yep, it's a popular formula. I've done a video documentary on the AN ACHE IN EVERY STAKE filming location steps. Aside from the vegetation that's grown, the cement and railing are the same as what we see in the film back in 1941.

Edgar Kennedy did his take on the "comics carrying bulky object up stairs" in the 1945 short IT'S YOUR MOVE, though that film used the Descanso steps. I've done a video documentary on that one too!

The "Music Box" steps served as the setting for at least 3 films PRIOR to THE MUSIC BOX:

ISN'T LIFE TERRIBLE? - Charley Chase (1925)
ICE COLD COCOS - Billy Bevan (1926)
HATS OFF - Laurel and Hardy (1927)

I've done a video documentary on the Chase and Bevan films, also available on my website. I'd be happy to do a video documentary on HATS OFF if someone will lend me their copy! :-)

Here's an excerpt from my video documentary on the filming location for THE MUSIC BOX. The complete video documentary is on my website: https://ChrisBungoStudios.com




Offline NoahYoung

I'd be happy to do a video documentary on HATS OFF if someone will lend me their copy! :-)

I'd lend you mine, but I doubt you have a 9.5mm projector.


The "Music Box" steps served as the setting for at least 3 films PRIOR to THE MUSIC BOX:

Where does THE MUSIC BOX fall in your list of L&H favorites? I had never read a bad thing about it until the age of the Internet when many people didn't think it was that great. I beg to differ.


Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline NoahYoung


On 2011's U.S. Based LAUREL & HARDY: THE ESSENTIAL COLLECTION set, only THE MUSIC BOX'S first two reels were transferred from it's original negative, while it's third reel derives from a dupe negative taken from a work print.  This is said to be because the third reel negative disappeared around 1983, which would have been about two years prior to the start of Richard W. Bann & Company's massive, 17 year (1985-2002) restoration of the Laurel & Hardy Hal Roach Sound Film Library.  Considering the challenge posed, the editing between the two prints is remarkably seamless, in my opinion!


I've never listened to the commentary tracks. I assume they mean first 2 reels from the Original Camera Negative (OCN.) When all is said and done, and they have the final edit, they edit the OCN to match it. Then we have OCN->fine grain->dupe neg->release prints. Off the top of my head, I believe OCN->work print. Then they edit the work print to come up with the final edit. (I could be wrong.) It could be OCN->fine grain->dupe neg->work print. (You just need to remember you alternate from negatives to positives.) I'm not sure why they would create a dupe neg from work print, though.  If that's the case, it could be OCN->work print->dupe neg. So for the DVD they scanned a 3rd generation film element for the 3rd reel -- that's not bad. Still a generation earlier than what people saw in theaters in 1932.

Let me get up on my pedestal and once again spew my spiel about collecting on 16mm. Most prints of THE MUSIC BOX were printed in 16mm before 1983, when the OCN "disappeared." Before they went belly-up, Blackhawk Films probably printed a few after 1983, but they were still working from the negatives that they had for many years, so even in 1984 it wouldn't have mattered to them that the OCN of reel 3 was "missing." Later, Film Preservation Associates run by David Shepard was printing and selling basically the whole Blackhawk Library in 16mm up until 2007, since he purchased and licensed the negs. I have a Blackhaw print in Super 8 from 1974 -- gorgeous. I also have a Film Classic 16mm print from around 1960 on Kodak Stock. It may be printed down from the OCN -- I'm not sure. It certainly is an "original" though, meaning a 16mm neg was made from the 35mm dupe neg. It's actually not that hard to get a 16mm "printdown" of THE MUSIC BOX from the 1940s on eBay, if you know what to look for, and the seller isn't totally film-ignorant (though most are!)

I once saw a sparkling, pristine, looks-like-it-was-shot-yesterday 35mm print of THE MUSIC BOX projected at a private showing. It looked like it could have been an original release print from the 30s, but I doubt that it was nitrate, since I saw it at the home of the collector who owned the print and actually had a 35mm projector in his basement -- a mini-theater that could barely fit 10 people! This was perhaps a quarter of a century ago, long before those "restoration" DVDs and Blu-rays were made.

I'm not sure what the source was on THE DEFINITIVE RESTORATIONS.

16mm sources are often used in digital restorations, particularly for silent films where a 35mm print of negative just doesn't exist. For L&H, when the OCN is "missing", I wonder why they haven't considered searching for 16mm print-downs from the OCN? I'm referring to the Talkies, since I've heard that the source of prior DVDs for the Silents sometimes were 16mm Blackhawk prints with mocked-up main title cards to look "original." I'm not sure what those "Year One", "Year Two", etc discs are using, but I do know that for DUCK SOUP, it must be 35mm since the clips I've seen blow the old "Lost Films" DVDs away! My point is that perhaps a pristine 16mm print-down (2nd generation) would look better than a 3rd or 4th generation 35mm neg or print,  particularly if the 35mm film element is damaged via decomposition or projector/printer wear (pulled sprocket holes, splices, scratches, etc.)

An, oh yea, my 16mm has a word of dialog not included on any digital restortion I've seen. Gilbert's wife says one word but the rest of the sentence is cut off before we transition to L&H on their wagon. That one word is usually omitted -- including on the Blackhawk print I have. I think the word is "Oh" but I'm not 100% sure.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline ChrisBungoStudios

I'd lend you mine, but I doubt you have a 9.5mm projector.

Hee hee!



Where does THE MUSIC BOX fall in your list of L&H favorites? I had never read a bad thing about it until the age of the Internet when many people didn't think it was that great. I beg to differ.

I like it, wish it had the Leroy Shield background music though. Is it my favorite short of theirs? No.


Offline NoahYoung

Hee hee!



I like it, wish it had the Leroy Shield background music though. Is it my favorite short of theirs? No.

The LeRoy Shield background music would have interfered with the occassional clanking of the piano keys heard throughout the film. That's my theory on why it was left out, though several other L&H shorts around that time are also devoid of it.

Curious which is your fav short. As I mentioned above, THE MUSIC BOX is my second fav short of theirs, and third fav film of theirs overall.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline ChrisBungoStudios

The LeRoy Shield background music would have interfered with the occassional clanking of the piano keys heard throughout the film. That's my theory on why it was left out, though several other L&H shorts around that time are also devoid of it.

Curious which is your fav short. As I mentioned above, THE MUSIC BOX is my second fav short of theirs, and third fav film of theirs overall.

I think they were under intense pressure to get this film done quickly, so they just skipped adding the background music. Randy Skretvedt's book probably has the answer.

I don't know that I have a favorite short of theirs, but rather a favorite period: 1931-1932, starting AFTER "Be Big!"

Chickens Come Home, Our Wife, One Good Turn, Helpmates, The Music Box, The Chimp, County Hospital, Scram!



Offline NoahYoung

I think they were under intense pressure to get this film done quickly, so they just skipped adding the background music. Randy Skretvedt's book probably has the answer.

I only have the first edition, which only mentions that THEIR FIRST MISTAKE was rushed into release and Bert Jordan didn't have time to splice together a music track. Later editions might have info on other shorts without music.

Many of the later shorts which have music are what I call "needle drops." No thought was put into making the background music fit the action on the screen. They just dropped a needle onto a disc, and when it was finished, they dropped a needle onto the next disc, etc.

About a year or 2 ago, I started to make a music track for DIRTY WORK with my 2 Beau Hunks CDs. I did about 5 minutes worth then stopped. The CDs were too crisp and clear and seemed out of place. I know there are ways to manipulate the sound to make it sound older, but I'm not sure that the free Audacity software can do that. My ultimate plan was to add the music to the balance track of my Super 8 print. I may revisit it someday.

I don't know that I have a favorite short of theirs, but rather a favorite period: 1931-1932, starting AFTER "Be Big!"

Chickens Come Home, Our Wife, One Good Turn, Helpmates, The Music Box, The Chimp, County Hospital, Scram!

I used to trash BE BIG until I read Richard W. Bann's comments on it on his L&H website. He mentions how Randy exaggerated the length of the boot scene -- it is nowhere near 20 minutes. There's plenty of great stuff leading up to the boot scene, and if you cut out about half of that scene, it would make a pretty enjoyable short -- a two-reeler. (I've never tried due to not having decent software to do it.)

Starting with ANOTHER FINE MESS, which was their first release of the 1930-1931 season, they started a nice run of shorts up until 1935. That short was the first to use the LeRoy Shield music in a L&H comedy. That list of 8 shorts you mention are all pretty darned good. From that point on, only TWICE TWO is really an embarassment. I'm not a fan of THEIR FIRST MISTAKE either. It starts out well, but before we are even halfway through (a minute or 2 short of it), it falls flat. And rather than background music, we get to hear a baby crying for 10 minutes. Wonderful. Our Gang's LITTLE PAPA is similar to the last half of this short, and remains probably the weakest short of that series after Alfalfa was introduced -- though it has competition from LITTLE SINNER.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline ChrisBungoStudios

I only have the first edition, which only mentions that THEIR FIRST MISTAKE was rushed into release and Bert Jordan didn't have time to splice together a music track. Later editions might have info on other shorts without music.

Many of the later shorts which have music are what I call "needle drops." No thought was put into making the background music fit the action on the screen. They just dropped a needle onto a disc, and when it was finished, they dropped a needle onto the next disc, etc.

About a year or 2 ago, I started to make a music track for DIRTY WORK with my 2 Beau Hunks CDs. I did about 5 minutes worth then stopped. The CDs were too crisp and clear and seemed out of place. I know there are ways to manipulate the sound to make it sound older, but I'm not sure that the free Audacity software can do that. My ultimate plan was to add the music to the balance track of my Super 8 print. I may revisit it someday.

I used to trash BE BIG until I read Richard W. Bann's comments on it on his L&H website. He mentions how Randy exaggerated the length of the boot scene -- it is nowhere near 20 minutes. There's plenty of great stuff leading up to the boot scene, and if you cut out about half of that scene, it would make a pretty enjoyable short -- a two-reeler. (I've never tried due to not having decent software to do it.)

Starting with ANOTHER FINE MESS, which was their first release of the 1930-1931 season, they started a nice run of shorts up until 1935. That short was the first to use the LeRoy Shield music in a L&H comedy. That list of 8 shorts you mention are all pretty darned good. From that point on, only TWICE TWO is really an embarassment. I'm not a fan of THEIR FIRST MISTAKE either. It starts out well, but before we are even halfway through (a minute or 2 short of it), it falls flat. And rather than background music, we get to hear a baby crying for 10 minutes. Wonderful. Our Gang's LITTLE PAPA is similar to the last half of this short, and remains probably the weakest short of that series after Alfalfa was introduced -- though it has competition from LITTLE SINNER.

I love LITTLE SINNER because it gives us a nice look at the church that appeared in the background of so many of the Our Gang comedies AND they went up to Lancaster Lake in Sunland - a beautiful location now paved over and a trailer park.

When Leroy Shield was shown the exit at the studio (the first time) yes, the wonderful scoring of the films stopped and it was just "dropping the needle" as you describe. Though the Charley Chase shorts had some good original songs, I suppose written by Chase and / or Marvin Hatley.

As a general rule, in the sound era at Hal Roach Studios, I tend to like the early, less slick films. Around 1934 the studio really turned the corner and was churning out films that didn't have those "rough edges" like the early 30s films did. Same with The Three Stooges films. 1934-1936 is my favorite period.


Offline NoahYoung

I love LITTLE SINNER because it gives us a nice look at the church that appeared in the background of so many of the Our Gang comedies AND they went up to Lancaster Lake in Sunland - a beautiful location now paved over and a trailer park.

As I've mentioned a few times on this forum, a lesser film among a great series like Our Gang does not mean it is bad; it's just not as good as many others. LITTLE SINNER is enjoyable for the reasons you mention; it just doesn't have as many laugh-out-loud moments as others in the series. The TV censors cut this ones to shreds for the King World verions, and made it basically a one-reeler. The title was pluralized for some re-issue versions -- not sure about the KW one, though. I should also point out that my ranking was restricted to those made at the Roach studios.

The worst Roach Our Gang short with Alfalfa is THE AWFUL TOOTH, which plays like a Public Service Announcement, like many of their later shorts made at M-G-M.

When Leroy Shield was shown the exit at the studio (the first time) yes, the wonderful scoring of the films stopped and it was just "dropping the needle" as you describe. Though the Charley Chase shorts had some good original songs, I suppose written by Chase and / or Marvin Hatley.

I had forgotten that Shield was let go. I need to refresh my memory by reading the pertinent sections of Randy's book. It is interesting to note that for the early shorts, even when compositions were re-used, they were often re-arranged/re-orchestrated. I do enjoy those late 30s re-issues of earlier shorts with the newly-added music from contemporary Roach features such as OUR RELATIONS and WAY OUT WEST, although they were basically "needle drops," too.

When Charley Chase sings, it is often a highlight for me. Hatley made a few on-screen appearances, notably in HIGH C'S, one of my all-time favorite Chase talkies.

As a general rule, in the sound era at Hal Roach Studios, I tend to like the early, less slick films. Around 1934 the studio really turned the corner and was churning out films that didn't have those "rough edges" like the early 30s films did. Same with The Three Stooges films. 1934-1936 is my favorite period.

I know exactly what you mean. Toward the end of 1932 / beginning of 1933 there was a subtle change, and this can be seen in the Our Gang and Charley Chase shorts as well. To me, THEM THAR HILLS seems like a throwback. I enjoy TIT FOR TAT immensely, but the street scenes were clearly made on a sound-stage.

That being said, TOWED IN A HOLE, BUSY BODIES, DIRTY WORK (to a somewhat lesser extent) , and the THE LIVE GHOST are also classics that don't really suffer from the slickness. The lack of background music on DIRTY WORK does hurt it a bit, I think. I'd prefer some tightening up of the editing on the scenes not on the roof or in the chimney, though.

Sometimes more so than slickness are "dead" spots and slow pacing, accentuated by the lack of background music. Watch something like HELPMATES or ONE GOOD TURN, followed by THE FIXER UPPERS or THICKER THAN WATER and you'll notice the night-and-day difference. For some reason, they decided to use background music for one scene only in THE FIXER UPPERS.

Some of those early Stooges are great, but that run that metaldams talks about from late 30s to early 40s is hard to beat overall. My favorites from your fav period are: Pop Goes the Easel, Uncivil Warriors, Pardon My Scotch, Hoi Polloi, Three Little Beers, and  Whoops, I'm an Indian!  And those are some of my favorite Stooge shorts overall.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline ChrisBungoStudios

As I've mentioned a few times on this forum, a lesser film among a great series like Our Gang does not mean it is bad; it's just not as good as many others. LITTLE SINNER is enjoyable for the reasons you mention; it just doesn't have as many laugh-out-loud moments as others in the series. The TV censors cut this ones to shreds for the King World verions, and made it basically a one-reeler. The title was pluralized for some re-issue versions -- not sure about the KW one, though. I should also point out that my ranking was restricted to those made at the Roach studios.

The worst Roach Our Gang short with Alfalfa is THE AWFUL TOOTH, which plays like a Public Service Announcement, like many of their later shorts made at M-G-M.

I had forgotten that Shield was let go. I need to refresh my memory by reading the pertinent sections of Randy's book. It is interesting to note that for the early shorts, even when compositions were re-used, they were often re-arranged/re-orchestrated. I do enjoy those late 30s re-issues of earlier shorts with the newly-added music from contemporary Roach features such as OUR RELATIONS and WAY OUT WEST, although they were basically "needle drops," too.

When Charley Chase sings, it is often a highlight for me. Hatley made a few on-screen appearances, notably in HIGH C'S, one of my all-time favorite Chase talkies.

I know exactly what you mean. Toward the end of 1932 / beginning of 1933 there was a subtle change, and this can be seen in the Our Gang and Charley Chase shorts as well. To me, THEM THAR HILLS seems like a throwback. I enjoy TIT FOR TAT immensely, but the street scenes were clearly made on a sound-stage.

That being said, TOWED IN A HOLE, BUSY BODIES, DIRTY WORK (to a somewhat lesser extent) , and the THE LIVE GHOST are also classics that don't really suffer from the slickness. The lack of background music on DIRTY WORK does hurt it a bit, I think. I'd prefer some tightening up of the editing on the scenes not on the roof or in the chimney, though.

Sometimes more so than slickness are "dead" spots and slow pacing, accentuated by the lack of background music. Watch something like HELPMATES or ONE GOOD TURN, followed by THE FIXER UPPERS or THICKER THAN WATER and you'll notice the night-and-day difference. For some reason, they decided to use background music for one scene only in THE FIXER UPPERS.

Some of those early Stooges are great, but that run that metaldams talks about from late 30s to early 40s is hard to beat overall. My favorites from your fav period are: Pop Goes the Easel, Uncivil Warriors, Pardon My Scotch, Hoi Polloi, Three Little Beers, and  Whoops, I'm an Indian!  And those are some of my favorite Stooge shorts overall.


All excellent points.

I'm sure there's another forum on here for "Name your favorite Stooge shorts"  and I would name 5 of your 6:

POP GOES THE EASEL, UNCIVIL WARRIORS, PARDON MY SCOTCH, HOI POLLOI, THREE LITTLE BEERS, and  WHOOPS, I'M AN INDIAN!

If you REALLY wanted to pin me down to one, it's UNCIVIL WARRIORS.


Offline NoahYoung


All excellent points.

I'm sure there's another forum on here for "Name your favorite Stooge shorts"  and I would name 5 of your 6:

POP GOES THE EASEL, UNCIVIL WARRIORS, PARDON MY SCOTCH, HOI POLLOI, THREE LITTLE BEERS, and  WHOOPS, I'M AN INDIAN!

If you REALLY wanted to pin me down to one, it's UNCIVIL WARRIORS.

I love UNCIVIL WARRIORS since it is so different than most Stooges shorts, yet still very funny. It shows that they could have been successful without all the eye-poking and head-bashing (though we love that stuff anyway.)

Off the top of my head, some other favs are: AN ACHE IN EVERY STAKE, TASSELS IN THE AIR, PLAYING THE PONIES, WE WANT OUR MUMMY, CALLING ALL CURS, YOU NAZTY SPY, and DUTIFUL BUT DUMB. And that's just the Curlys. The only ones here I'd rank higher than some of the shorts I listed above are AN ACHE IN EVERY STAKE and DUTIFUL BUT DUMB. It's really hard to rank in any order the ones I've listed, TBH.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline NoahYoung

Back to L&H, and the perceived slow pacing in a handful of their shorts.

Stan Laurel has been quoted as stating that their films didn't play well on TV, because they were cut based on preview audiences reactions (laughter), and they added or subtracted "silence" to account for it. For the shorts with a lively music track, this hardly matters when you are watching the film alone.  It's the films without the music where they can seem lethargic. Add in the fact that when I'm watching one of these for the 1000th time, even my laughter is somewhat subdued.

I'll now segue into my feelings on laughtracks for sitcoms. A lot of these points I think I've made here before when discussing THE ABBOTT AND COSTELLO SHOW. (Spoiler: I'm not opposed to it.)

All things being equal, I prefer sitcoms that were filmed/video-taped in front of a live audience. The most popular sitcoms from the 50s were all filmed this way. Think I LOVE LUCY, THE HONEYMOONERS, and THE PHIL SILVERS SHOW (SGT. BILKO.) (I'll leave out variety shows for this discussion.) There's an immediacy to these shows that simply could not have been duplicated if they were filmed without an audience. (I've read that after the first season, BILKO was filmed without an audience, which surprised me since I did not notice. It could be that perhaps the last season was filmed that way -- and it's been awhile since I've seen those later episodes.)

Those sitcoms from the 50s and 60s with a laughtrack just can't compare to the shows I just mentioned, but imagine them without a laughtrack. The results just would not be good.

THE ABBOTT AND COSTELLO SHOW was not filmed before a live audience. They did the next best thing though -- they showed the finished film to an audience, recorder the laughter, and added it back to the soundtrack of the film. The result is that it appears that it was filmed in front of an audience -- at least for the first season. (Perhaps BILKO used this method for later seasons as well.)

Back to L&H -- without laughter and/or music accompanying them, a few can feel "dead." The fact that it is only a few, and that shorts like THE MUSIC BOX still play great when you are viewing them alone, is a big achievement.

The vast majority of Stooges shorts have no background music, yet most don't suffer for it at all. I think some credit is due to the editors of those shorts. And of course the Stooges themselves, and their directors.





Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline Tony Bensley

Back to L&H, and the perceived slow pacing in a handful of their shorts.

Stan Laurel has been quoted as stating that their films didn't play well on TV, because they were cut based on preview audiences reactions (laughter), and they added or subtracted "silence" to account for it. For the shorts with a lively music track, this hardly matters when you are watching the film alone.  It's the films without the music where they can seem lethargic. Add in the fact that when I'm watching one of these for the 1000th time, even my laughter is somewhat subdued.

I'll now segue into my feelings on laughtracks for sitcoms. A lot of these points I think I've made here before when discussing THE ABBOTT AND COSTELLO SHOW. (Spoiler: I'm not opposed to it.)

All things being equal, I prefer sitcoms that were filmed/video-taped in front of a live audience. The most popular sitcoms from the 50s were all filmed this way. Think I LOVE LUCY, THE HONEYMOONERS, and THE PHIL SILVERS SHOW (SGT. BILKO.) (I'll leave out variety shows for this discussion.) There's an immediacy to these shows that simply could not have been duplicated if they were filmed without an audience. (I've read that after the first season, BILKO was filmed without an audience, which surprised me since I did not notice. It could be that perhaps the last season was filmed that way -- and it's been awhile since I've seen those later episodes.)

Those sitcoms from the 50s and 60s with a laughtrack just can't compare to the shows I just mentioned, but imagine them without a laughtrack. The results just would not be good.

THE ABBOTT AND COSTELLO SHOW was not filmed before a live audience. They did the next best thing though -- they showed the finished film to an audience, recorder the laughter, and added it back to the soundtrack of the film. The result is that it appears that it was filmed in front of an audience -- at least for the first season. (Perhaps BILKO used this method for later seasons as well.)

Back to L&H -- without laughter and/or music accompanying them, a few can feel "dead." The fact that it is only a few, and that shorts like THE MUSIC BOX still play great when you are viewing them alone, is a big achievement.

The vast majority of Stooges shorts have no background music, yet most don't suffer for it at all. I think some credit is due to the editors of those shorts. And of course the Stooges themselves, and their directors.
I would only put forth the argument (Perhaps a weak one?) that for the Stooges, the sound effects for their pokes often at least somewhat subbed for background music at times.

Some of THE MONKEES later Season 2 episodes (Beginning with the 12th Episode when onboard a pirate ship!) somewhat suffer from the lack of a laugh track. A few of those later episodes include what I'd call a weirdly subdued canned laugh track. You'd have to hear it to get what I'm talking about. Their late Season 2 Haunted House themed episode (The exact title escapes me, at the moment!) is an example of this, if I correctly recall.

CHEERS!  [3stooges]


Offline NoahYoung

I would only put forth the argument (Perhaps a weak one?) that for the Stooges, the sound effects for their pokes often at least somewhat subbed for background music at times.

Some of THE MONKEES later Season 2 episodes (Beginning with the 12th Episode when onboard a pirate ship!) somewhat suffer from the lack of a laugh track. A few of those later episodes include what I'd call a weirdly subdued canned laugh track. You'd have to hear it to get what I'm talking about. Their late Season 2 Haunted House themed episode (The exact title escapes me, at the moment!) is an example of this, if I correctly recall.

CHEERS!  [3stooges]

I haven't seen THE MONKEES in years, but that wasn't really a traditional sitcom. Not necessarily this show, but when these old shows are shown now on disc, cable, streaming, whatever, they often muck with them in one way or another so those episodes might have had a laughtrack in "ye olden days."

M*A*S*H wasn't a traditional sitcom, either, and scenes in the OR were sans laughtrack. A handful of episodes had none at all, and I think I read that on disc there may be on option to turn it off on all episodes.

Regarding the sound effects for the Stooges -- it wasn't continous as background music is. But it does sub for laughter -- kinda.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline ChrisBungoStudios

Back to L&H, and the perceived slow pacing in a handful of their shorts.

Stan Laurel has been quoted as stating that their films didn't play well on TV, because they were cut based on preview audiences reactions (laughter), and they added or subtracted "silence" to account for it. For the shorts with a lively music track, this hardly matters when you are watching the film alone.  It's the films without the music where they can seem lethargic. Add in the fact that when I'm watching one of these for the 1000th time, even my laughter is somewhat subdued.

I'll now segue into my feelings on laughtracks for sitcoms. A lot of these points I think I've made here before when discussing THE ABBOTT AND COSTELLO SHOW. (Spoiler: I'm not opposed to it.)

All things being equal, I prefer sitcoms that were filmed/video-taped in front of a live audience. The most popular sitcoms from the 50s were all filmed this way. Think I LOVE LUCY, THE HONEYMOONERS, and THE PHIL SILVERS SHOW (SGT. BILKO.) (I'll leave out variety shows for this discussion.) There's an immediacy to these shows that simply could not have been duplicated if they were filmed without an audience. (I've read that after the first season, BILKO was filmed without an audience, which surprised me since I did not notice. It could be that perhaps the last season was filmed that way -- and it's been awhile since I've seen those later episodes.)

Those sitcoms from the 50s and 60s with a laughtrack just can't compare to the shows I just mentioned, but imagine them without a laughtrack. The results just would not be good.

THE ABBOTT AND COSTELLO SHOW was not filmed before a live audience. They did the next best thing though -- they showed the finished film to an audience, recorder the laughter, and added it back to the soundtrack of the film. The result is that it appears that it was filmed in front of an audience -- at least for the first season. (Perhaps BILKO used this method for later seasons as well.)

Back to L&H -- without laughter and/or music accompanying them, a few can feel "dead." The fact that it is only a few, and that shorts like THE MUSIC BOX still play great when you are viewing them alone, is a big achievement.

The vast majority of Stooges shorts have no background music, yet most don't suffer for it at all. I think some credit is due to the editors of those shorts. And of course the Stooges themselves, and their directors.


Laughtracks in place of background music - good observation. Could you imaging a L&H short with a laughtrack? Yikes!


Offline NoahYoung


 Could you imaging a L&H short with a laughtrack? Yikes!

Nah, that wouldn't work. To me a laughtrack is for comedy that could also have been presented on the stage as a play. Unless Ollie's neighbors were laughing at him falling off the roof while trying to put up an antenna!

When I was in my late teens, my friend and I were having a catch in the street, and an elderly neighbor was up on his roof doing some work, and he fell off more than once -- and didn't get hurt! Although once he landed on a first-story landing outside a window. He was hanging onto the gutter before he dropped feet-first onto the landing and amazingly kept his balance. Later when I wasn't there, he fell to the grass while climbing up the ladder -- that's what my friend told me. Just like Ollie, he kept dusting himself off and got right back in the saddle!

Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz