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Some great jazz

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Offline NoahYoung

Since I mentioned some great jazz/Big Band in a few threads on Abbott and Costello movies, I thought I would put some links here to listen to some of the best of the best. The sole purpose is to introduce people to some great music, and to realize that there was much better music in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, for the most part, than what was seen/heard in comedy films of the times. You will not be accused of being a "square" by listening to this music.

From 1937, the Count Basie "Symphony" (my word)  Orchestra:


From 1928,  the great Duke Ellington and His Orchestra:


The same music, but longer, and recorded on tape in 1952 for much higher fidelity:
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline HomokHarcos

I also like the music from this era, such as hot jazz, swing and jump blues. My uncle has a 1917 victrola and a Bennie Moten record. I also like a lot of the solo music the singers did after they left big bands, such as Peggy Lee after leaving Benny Goodman's orchestra.


Offline HomokHarcos

Do you have an opinion on the Boswell Sisters? They are one of my favorite vocal groups.



Offline NoahYoung

HomokHarcos,

I'm a big Benny Goodman fan. I have a lot of stuff I haven't listed to yet (from the Columbia period after he left RCA Victor), but I have heard many of the Peggy Lee vocals, but not all. I have a stack of LPs of Time-Life Big Band 2-fers, sealed, that I haven't listed to yet -- bought them last summer. About 40 or so LPs. I have many Goodman CDs from the Columbia period, plus a 6lp box set, but there's a lot more stuff that I don't have. Try to find Goodman live recordings from his RCA Victor period -- airchecks made by an amateur named Bill Savory who later became an engineer for Columbia. He had top-of-the-line equipment to record the airchecks onto disc. His estate has only made a small percentage of the recordings available -- Mosaic Records released a limited-edtion CD set last year, with no Goodman (Blame the Benny Goodman estate for that. They are holding up releasing the music). In the LP era, and later on CD, Columbia released some of his Goodman recordings. It's on Columbia Jazz Masterpieces CD, called "Benny Goodman On The Air (1937-1938)". It sells for peanuts on amazon,  discogs and ebay. A lot of it is on youtube for free!

https://www.discogs.com/release/5070111-Benny-Goodman-On-The-Air-1937-1938
Although they are airchecks, Savory didn't record from his radio's speaker. He had a direct cable line feed, the same as the radio stations had. Unfortunately, according to the CD liner notes, the original discs were destroyed. They had made tape copies of the discs. Those deteriorated. But they found copies of those tapes, which were used for the CDs! They still sound pretty good. I bought it on LP too, since they were pressed when earlier generation sources were still available. It's not a concert -- it's music from various different live broadcasts -- though they were dance concerts for the people in attendance from the venues where they were broadcasted from.

I have lots of solo Peggy Lee that I haven't listed too yet.

I have never heard the Boswell Sisters, but I have heard OF them.

A book you might enjoy is "Jazz Singing", by Will Friedwald. He covers all the big (and some small) names.. He also wrote a book just on Sinatra. I have used the books more as a reference rather than reading them cover to cover. You can really jut use the index and read who you want to read about. He lists sources for the music on CD, which is now way outdated, but hep if you buy on places like eBay.

But there is so much stuff free on the web -- places like ebay and archive.org. The latter sometimes only has 30 second previews, but often has complete LPs and CDs. All the 78 transfers are free, and sometimes sound better than the CD issues of the same music! No digital cleanup, and often many copies of the same music from 78s of different quality -- which they rate -- poor, fair, very good, excellent, etc. You can listen to raw transfers -- they use 4 different styli! Then they apply gentle EQ if you want that. Then they identify what they consider to be the best sounding. It's done by a company called George Blood.

https://archive.org/details/georgeblood

I use Audacity, which is free, to make them sound a bit better.

https://www.audacityteam.org/

I don't use their de-clicker, or noise reduction, though. I simply sum the 2 channels (from each side of the 78s groove), which eliminates surface noise unique to each channel, so you are only left with noise common to both channels. Sometimes, I just pick one channel. Audacity is amazing -- hard to believe it's open source. It is very well supported, too.

For my mono LPs, I use a double-Y cord to sum the channels. The difference is amazing. A double-Y cord costs just a few dollars. I just bought another one at a dollar store that was closing down for $1.50. You actually have to buy 2 Y-cords. "One female to 2 male" rca connectors, and "one male to 2 female" rca connectors. Connect between turntable and pre-amp, or between pre-amp and amp.

Actually, here's Jazz concert 37-38:
https://archive.org/details/lp_the-king-of-swing-complete-1937-jazz-con_benny-goodman-and-his-orchestra-benny-good

And the Carnegie Hall concert. also recorded by Savory live at, you guessed it, Carnegie Hall.
https://archive.org/details/BennyGoodmanCarnegieHallJazzConcert

The Carnegie Hall concert has been re-mastered onto CD several times, from no de-clicking or noise reduction, to lots of it.
Here are samples from the official authorized release of the restoration. Lots of surface noise, but all the music is there.
https://archive.org/details/cd_the-famous-1938-carnegie-hall-jazz-concert_benny-goodman


One of several copies of the "Sing, Sing, Sing" 78. There could be better ones, but this is listed as "good". The music is long, so it is on both sides of the disc.

https://archive.org/details/78_sing-sing-sing---part-2_benny-goodman-and-his-orchestra-louis-prima-b.-goodman-h._gbia0009386/01+-+Sing%2C+Sing%2C+Sing+-+Part+1+-+Benny+Goodman+and+his+Orchestra-restored.flac

In this case, they also used "Restoration to enhance using iZotope RX7 v7.01 and FabFilter Pro Q2 M/S EQ", but the raw transfers are there, too. I have spent more time than I care to admit first choosing the best 78, then choosing the best transfer (but I usually go with the one recommended by them, but without digital noise reduction.) I still haven't completed Ellington's Blanton-Webster band, but I'm about 2/3 of the way through. They sound better than the official restoration done on CD by RCA in 1999. I even have most of that music on LP, which sounds better than the CD.

For Benny Goodman, I bought the complete set of 2-fers on LP (issued late 70s, early 80s) covering his entire RCA Victor recordings. They sound great, and have never been fully released on CD in the U.S., but I think possibly in Japan.

Enjoy.

And BTW, I enjoyed the Boswell Sisters song.
And check this out.



Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline metaldams

I have a question about jazz and the mono/stereo transition.  I know in the 60’s, even though most rock bands had both mixing formats available, most, until maybe 1968 or thereabouts, preferred the mono mix.  This was because it was more a singles market and AM radio was the main goal.

For jazz artists, say Miles Davis.  Did artists like him, in the 60’s, grasp on to stereo quicker than rock artists?  I would guess yes, since they weren’t so AM radio oriented. 
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline NoahYoung

That's a great question, metaldams. Unfortunately, the answer is not so simple. As you have seen, I like to explain all the details, so everything is clear (hopefully), and makes sense. In this case, I'm not sure how clear or accurate the answer will be (from me, at least), but I will give you a short answer, and a longer one.

Short answer: It was driven by the studio suits bowing to the almighty dollar. And despite what one may think from that statement, it wasn't necessarily in favor of stereo. I haven't done in-depth research on all jazz artists, but I have dug very deep into this aspect of Sinatra's recordings (who was basically a jazz singer, though the general public calls it "easy listening", a term I despise!  :D), and a bit of Ellington and Basie.

Long answer:

Starting around 1957, the big studios started recording LPs (on tape, as they had been since around 1950, give or take a year depending on the label) in both stereo and mono. (Not just strictly jazz.) I'm not a big Miles Davis fan,  but for artists like Sinatra, Basie, and Ellington, I can comment. But I am pretty sure Miles was the same -- I don't think the artists really cared because the same takes were recorded. So the artists didn't have to do more work -- the recording engineers did. There was the occasional mishap, with usually the newer stereo machine not having the tape heads aligned properly, or running at the wrong speed. Also, this was new technology for the engineers, so mess-ups were to be expected. So in those cases the artists did have to do another take.I have never read much about it being a big deal from the artists, except in one session at Capitol Nat King Cole said, during some mishaps requiring another take, "There is way to much technology in this session!" Sometimes different takes were issued on the mono version from the stereo version. Needless to say, these are still being discovered today as fanatic collectors do side-by-side comparisons. "Hey, this is a completely different take!"

Many audiophiles prefer the mono mixes of albums. Not sure the year the studios stopped recording in mono. Could be around 1968 though. I'd have to research it. The Steve Hoffman forum is an excellent resource for things like that. I have read many posts there, but have never joined. Hoffman himself remasters all genres for CD (and other digital formats).

Why do audiophiles prefer mono for the era when stereo first started through perhaps the next 10 years? I will attempt to articulate my understanding, but I am relying strictly on memory. (I know that this wasn't really your exact question, but it needs to be explained to fully understand the driving forces back then up until today.)

For stereo, in the early days, they used a total of 2 mics, one left, one right. (For the most part that's how it was setup.) There were many other mics present, but for the mono mix. The studios themselves considered the mono mix more important, I think basically for the reason that not that many people had stereo equipment in those early days. So they focused on getting the mono mix to sound great. The recording engineers were experts (in theory!) in setting up the mic placement to capture all the instruments in the best balance possible. That being said, different studios, and engineers, had different styles on how to do this. Some made it sound like you were in the audience at a live performance. Some made it sound like you were sitting with the band on stage with them. And of course there were setups somewhere in between.

One of the most famous jazz recording engineers was Rudy Van Gelder, in Hackensack New Jersey, who actually recorded in the living room of his parents' house for Blue Note Records.(He recorded Miles.) Later, he setup a studio in Englewood Cliffs, NJ. If a photographer was sent to his studio to take photos of the artists, he would actually move the mics around so as not to give away his technique! Charles Mingus famously stopped recording with Van Gelder because he said he ruined the sound of his bass. Rudy not only recorded, but did the mastering and cutting for the actual LPs. (Technically, the master metal parts used to stamp the LPs. I doubt he produced each and every LP. Again, I am going by memory without doing more research.) He later remastered most of his Blue Note recordings for CD. He stated that he preferred digital, since he said it was nearly impossible to get LPs to sound good -- he obviously recorded on tape, just like everyone else.

So, the mono mixes were mixed right on the spot. Only one track tape. There was no way to alter the mix after the live recording. For stereo, they had 2 tracks, recorded from each microphone, to later mix to the released LP. (I'm nowhere near an expert on this, but my layman's understanding is that it involves doing things like adjusting the volume levels on each track, sometimes altering them during different parts of the music, as well as doing some compression of different frequencies -- mostly high ones. This is not to be confused with digital compression, which is compressing the data to save space -- usually lossy, but sometimes lossless. Also, applying the appropriate equalization.) Legend has it, at least for Sinatra, that they would remix/remaster several times while the album was already released to the public, so you might buy the album today, and next month your friend might buy the album from the next set of pressings, and it would sound different. Even LPs from the same pressing could sound different as the master grooves wore out and they had to make a new stamper from the tapes. At least in the case of Capitol recording Sinatra, the west coast pressings were usually made from the original master tapes, while the east coast pressed from dubs of the masters.  Who knows what the mid-west and other areas got?! That's why collectors go crazy looking at codes in the deadwax to get a "preferred" pressing. I have heard that a badly pressed west coast pressing doesn't sound as good as a good pressed east coast pressing. At some point, I'm not sure when, they (not just Capitol) used 3 mics and 3 track tape for stereo, which had to be mixed down to 2 tracks for the LP, and even later on CD. So until this day, they are still remixing from multi-tack tapes for digital releases!

In the case of Sinatra, the Capitol pre-stereo mono LPs had slight reverb added live via echo chambers at the studio. (Later done for stereo as well.) So what was recorded on tape had the reverb, which can never be removed, in theory. Actually, Capitol later re-released mono-only Sinatra LPs in duo-phonic -- aka fake stereo. Columbia called it "electronically reprocessed to simulate stereo." Every studio came up with a different name. In short, they all sucked. Even when Capitol issued some mono Sinatra in the 60s, without fake stereo, they sometimes added extra reverb! The only way to hear these Sinatras are the from LPs or CDs made from the original "dry" tapes. The added live "reverb" is barely noticeable, and you feel like you are there with Sinatra in the room. I played a song from a CD and the LP for my wife, who knows nothing about this technology, and even she could hear the difference. The CD sounded like Sinatra was singing into a tin can!

Your statement about AM radio driving mono is interesting, and I had never thought about that. You are probably right (not that I'm doubting you  :D), and that fits right into my statement about the drivers being the almighty dollar. It would have to sound great in mono to get people to buy either the 45 single or the complete album. (Both would have been available in both stereo and mono.) Without googling right now, I'm not sure how far back FM radio goes.

So, it's a 2-sided coin actually. Get the mono version to sound great, since most people would buy the mono, and that was what they would hear on radio and probably juke boxes, too. Then as more people got stereos, re-issue mono albums in fake-stereo, and/or added reverb to make them sound "better." You gotta replace your old mono recording of Sinatra's IN THE WEE SMALL HOURS with the stereo version now that you have a stereo system, right. We've done such a great job we will fool you into thinking it was actually recorded in stereo! $$$$$$$$$

Back to my statement about the artists, I have no proof whether or not they cared about or preferred mono to stereo, or vice-versa. I've only heard that Mingus didn't like Van Gelder's recordings, regardless of stereo or mono. (He didn't make the distinction.)

Personally, if it was recorded in mono, I want to hear it in mono. Fake stereo can be somewhat mitigated by placing your speakers close together. Don't, however, sum to mono using a double-Y cable! You will get a jumble-sounding mess. (Fake stereo is supposedly achieved by re-channeling different frequencies to either your left or right speaker. There were supposedly other methods used depending upon the label, but the consensus on the Steve Hoffman forum is that they all sucked, just in a different way.)

Avoid added reverb -- this was/is just a marketing ploy to make the recording sound fuller, whether it be stereo or mono.

I would like to add a few other points, though it is unrelated to metaldams question. I will limit this to pre-digital recordings that were originally recorded on tape.

Since they were recorded on tape, they will naturally sound best on tape. They can never sound better than the master tape that was rolling in the machine while the artists were playing. I have never listened to reel-to-reel tape (except briefly when very young, just to play around with, not to listen to commercial recordings), but I have read that it has made a huge comeback, and the audiophiles say this beats the pants off any other format, be it digital, vinyl, or whatever. I can't comment on how much is lost by dubbing to a tape for the consumer from the master tape, but those people say it's great, and also costs in the neighborhood of $400 per album!

I think digital beats the pants off all other formats after reel-to-reel, particularly HD, although I think CDs sound great. There is a caveat, however, and that's why I still collect vinyl, even if I have a CD. If the re-mastering engineer simply plays back the best master tapes still surviving, and only applies some judicious EQ, (which is what Steve Hoffman does -- "tape hiss is your friend", he says), the results are phenomenal. That's why so may early CDs from the 80s sound great -- little to no noise reduction was used. (I'm not even sure they had the digital technology for NR at first anyway.)

But the "powers that be" insist that the general public does not want to hear extraneous noise, be it a tape glitch or tape hiss or whatever. (78s on CD is a whole other ball of wax!) So that's when I often turn to vinyl, until a better digital version becomes available. And in the past, and even to some extent today, there are albums only available on vinyl that were never released on CD.

Think about it, a vinyl LP is made roughly as follows: use the best available master tape (which would have been the session tape), while playing it, have a disc cutter make a stamper, then use that stamper to make the released LPs. For every LP stamped, there is wear on the stamper. So each successive LP pressed will be, in theory, of lesser quality. (Not sure how many times it would take to be audibly noticeable.) So an LP is a 3rd generation copy: tape->disc stamper->disc. There may even be another step in there -- I'm no expert.

Digital: tape->digital copy. You would think that there was no way a reel-to-reel release tape could be better than this. I guess the audiophiles shelling out $400 an album can't be wrong, right?  ::)

At the end of the day, IMHO, you really need audiophile equipment (costing tens of thousands of dollars), to hear the difference. One thing I can tell you though, you will hear the difference between an original "dry" recording (regardless of the media it is on), from one that has been fake-stereod, reverbed, and NR'd to death, on the most inexpensive equipment.

In the words of Billy Joel, "Don't waste your money on a new set of speakers. You get more mileage from a cheap pair of sneakers."


Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline metaldams

The duophonic stereo thing at Capitol and Sinatra makes complete sense.  It was the same deal with The Beatles U.S. records.

Basically it sounds a lot like the rock world minus the need for AM play, a brave new world people were still getting the hang of and not all artists were as opinionated as others.

Like with the film thing, I simply don’t have the storage space for big audiophile equipment, I pretty much listen on CD’s and streaming services.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline HomokHarcos

Around 2020 I started getting more into music and music history (much like comedians) and I listened to Peggy Lee's music from the Benny Goodman days up to the late 1960s. I like the brassy albums best, especially the ones with Nelson Riddle. That lead me to listen to more music conducted with Nelson Riddle's orchestra like the music with Dean Martin and Ella Fitzgerald. I'd like to listen to Benny Goodman's Carnegie Hall concert. I know it was a big deal playing there because it was usually associated with classical music.

I think "Heebie Jeebies" is one of the first hot jazz songs I listened to. The Hot Fives and Hot Sevens is almost essential hearing for 1920s jazz. The story goes (although it's most likely fabricated) that Louis Armstrong was singing "Heebie Jeebies", but his lyric sheet dropped so he did that scat singing on the fly.


Offline NoahYoung

The duophonic stereo thing at Capitol and Sinatra makes complete sense.  It was the same deal with The Beatles U.S. records.

Basically it sounds a lot like the rock world minus the need for AM play, a brave new world people were still getting the hang of and not all artists were as opinionated as others.

Like with the film thing, I simply don’t have the storage space for big audiophile equipment, I pretty much listen on CD’s and streaming services.

Yes, I don't ever feel that I'm missing something by not having audiophile equipment, but 10 years ago I bought a vintage Thorens turntable, and it only cost a little over $200. That's less than Thorens entry level tables made today. I heard at the time that the new Thorens were nowhere near as good as vintage ones. I have the cheapest pre-amp I could find, and feed it into an old Bose CD player that no longer plays CDs. Sometimes I feed it into a 30+ year old Panasonic boombox that actually still plays CDs fine.

For streaming, we have a family Spotify account, but it maxes out at 320kbs. It is pretty good when listening on an iphone, but with speakers I prefer lossless formats like FLAC. I just play them on my Laptop with Foobar2000 (which is free) and connect to the Bose.

Around 2020 I started getting more into music and music history (much like comedians) and I listened to Peggy Lee's music from the Benny Goodman days up to the late 1960s. I like the brassy albums best, especially the ones with Nelson Riddle. That lead me to listen to more music conducted with Nelson Riddle's orchestra like the music with Dean Martin and Ella Fitzgerald. I'd like to listen to Benny Goodman's Carnegie Hall concert. I know it was a big deal playing there because it was usually associated with classical music.

I think "Heebie Jeebies" is one of the first hot jazz songs I listened to. The Hot Fives and Hot Sevens is almost essential hearing for 1920s jazz. The story goes (although it's most likely fabricated) that Louis Armstrong was singing "Heebie Jeebies", but his lyric sheet dropped so he did that scat singing on the fly.

Yes I think I heard that too about Louis and that song. I bought the CD set of Hot Fives and Sevens back in 2000 when Sony remastered it. I later bought the earlier JSP CDs as well.  I still can't decide which sounds better, though each set has a few songs not on the other set, but they are technically not Hot Fives or Sevens. It's not almost essential, it is essential.  ;D

If you like Nelson Riddle's arrangements, his best work was with Sinatra. He also recorded a lot with Nat King Cole, but my favorite solo Cole is his work with Billy May -- very swinging.  My favorite Cole stuff is when he led The Nat King Cole Trio. It's all jazz. He sings on some, some are just instrumentals. I'm not sure the general public realizes he was an excellent jazz pianist. He released 2 albums with him playing the piano, without the trio.

I need to listen to my stockpile of Peggy Lee. Other than some of the Goodman stuff (I love "Why Don't You Do Right?"), I'm only familiar with her most famous ("Fever", Hey Big Spender"). BLACK COFFEE is supposed to be her best album -- I have it, but have yet to listen. I tend to listen to the same stuff that I really like over and over again, saying to myself "that other stuff I'll eventually get to." Same with films.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline NoahYoung

Some great Chick Webb:


The Benny Goodman Orchestra also played this tune:


Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz