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That time Abbott and Costello did Columbia-style comedy

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Offline HomokHarcos


Watch the paper hanging scene that starts at 8:01. It is much more like a Three Stooges comedy than the verbal routines Bud and Lou usually do. This actually answers my question as to how Abbott and Costello would have fared if they worked for the Jules White unit.


Offline Dunrobin

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Offline Freddie Sanborn

The writer for that show was Clyde Bruckman, who did a lot of work with the Stooges.

Their 1951-53 TV series was similar in spirit to classic two-reel comedy since there was no time for romantic subplots or musical numbers. And their wordplay routines could only be stretched out to one per episode, so the rest of the time was filled with pure slapstick. We’re so lucky these 52 episodes exist.
“If it’s not comedy, I fall asleep.” Harpo Marx


Offline metaldams

I have all the episodes on DVD and they’re a treasure.  I don’t know if I should spend an entire year reviewing one a week, but I’m trying to think of a way to review this in a doable manner.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline NoahYoung

I have all the episodes on DVD and they’re a treasure.  I don’t know if I should spend an entire year reviewing one a week, but I’m trying to think of a way to review this in a doable manner.

Yes, we have talked about this in another thread. As I said there, to the best of my knowledge, it hasn't been done anywhere, though on the old Abbott & Costello forum, some episodes were discussed. It would be kind of difficult to get through all 52 in a reasonable amount of time. If anything, the first season should be done. The second season is very different from the first, but upon my last viewing of all the episodes, I found a surprising number of ones that were quite good. There are a few that I might actually rank ahead of some season one episodes.

Another thought -- it might be easier to just have one general thread on the show, and concentrate on routines rather than each individual episode. That's what season one was all about -- routines. The best discussions might be comparing them to the versions in the movies.
A handful of routines were not performed in the movies. We could also call out exceptional episodes, and some non-exceptional ones.
 
Their 1951-53 TV series was similar in spirit to classic two-reel comedy since there was no time for romantic subplots or musical numbers. And their wordplay routines could only be stretched out to one per episode, so the rest of the time was filled with pure slapstick. We’re so lucky these 52 episodes exist.

Yes, I'm grateful for the show. Most season one episodes actually had more than one wordplay routine. One episode, "The Western Story", did have a song.

Regarding Columbia style comedy,  the plumbing scene from IN SOCIETY is reminiscent of A-PLUMBING WE WILL GO. And A&C are actually portraying real plumbers!

The kitchen clean-up scene is HERE COME THE CO-EDS is another example.

Clyde Bruckman lifted a lot of material from Buster Keaton films. Bruckman had worked with Keaton, but I am not sure if everything he lifted was written by him, or was in a film he directed. I would have to thumb through my books and do some more research.

They basically remade Keaton's ONE WEEK in "Honeymoon House" from the second season. (BTW, there is some conflicting information on the official titles of episodes, since they are not identified on-screen. Bob Furmanek has stated he has rectified that on his new DVDs/Blu-Rays, since he has access to original production paperwork.)

"South of Dixie" reworks material from Keaton's SPITE MARRIAGE.  (OK, a quick look at one of my Keaton books shows that Bruckman did not work on this nor ONE WEEK.) I forgot -- too many shorts to keep clear in my mind -- but didn't UNCIVIL WARBIRDS lift some material from SPITE MARRIAGE, too? I haven't seen any of the three recently enough to remember. Jim Mulholland, in his book on Abbott and Costello, with the very original title "The Abbott and Costello Book", states that the episode uses routines from THE GENERAL. Since that classic Keaton film is about a train chase, Mulholland is clearly wrong. BTW, while still a great book, and the first to offer a film-by-film analysis of their work, it contains much inaccurate information. He does provide a very brief synopsis of each episode, and does include a chapter on their TV work, including THE COLGATE COMEDY HOUR.  He calls out a few episodes, and discusses some routines, but it is a small percentage overall.

"The Private Eye" lifts some Keaton material, including the picture rocking back and forth by a window from THE NAVIGATOR, (which was also lifted for Columbia's Keaton short THE SPOOK SPEAKS),  and the "classic" penguin on roller skates scene from that same Columbia short. Remember , however, that these films weren't so easily available to view by the general public when the A&C TV show was first aired.

Another slapsticky epsiode was "The Fall Guy", (not to be confused with the "classic" Lee Majors TV show), with Charlie Hall. A bit reminiscent of HOG WILD with Laurel and Hardy, as they attempt to install an antenna on the roof.

Most of the second season episodes were very Columbia-esque, unlike season one.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline metaldams

UNCIVIL WARBIRDS was a remake of Buster Keaton’s Columbia short MOOCHING THROUGH GEORGIA (1939) both with writing credits by Clyde Bruckman.  It’s been a while since a I’ve watched season two, but I do seem to recall parts of this being used again for Bud and Lou, namely the whole brother in opposing uniform bit, if memory serves correct.  Clyde Bruckman tended to use a lot of gags from past films, so yes, he’d definitely use Keaton stuff for Bud and Lou, like you correctly pointed out.

I tend to review stuff on a weekly basis.  Yes, it’s time consuming - it took me over three years to finish The Three Stooges, but it also allows each episode/short to get its moment in the spotlight and allow for focused detail if necessary.  I have seen the A&C episodes a few times each, but don’t have them memorized.  I find the older I get and the more films I see, memorizing films becomes almost impossible for me.  I’ll do Bud and Lou’s episodes starting early summer and it will take me a year.  No doubt as I get to each one, I’ll be figuring out, along with the help from others who post, what movies routines showed up in and I’ll figure out my favorites along the way.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline NoahYoung

OK, I looked up MOOCHING THROUGH GEORGIA in "The Complete Films of Buster Keaton", and Jim Kline states, as you pointed out, that it did form the basis for UNCIVIL WARBIRDS. Both were directed by Jules White. I have all the Keaton Columbia shorts ready to watch, but the only one I have viewed so far is PEST FROM THE WEST, which I've had on Super 8 for about 25 years. PEST was a remake of Keaton's  feature THE INVADER, AKA AN OLD SPANISH CUSTOM. I bought the VHS tape from Grapevine Video in the early 90s, which used the latter title. I watched it exactly once, when I first bought it.

I have all the Universal A&C movies memorized, plus NOOSE and AFRICA. I've seen all 36, but the M-G-Ms aren't as clear in my mind since they weren't aired once every 31 weeks like the Universal ones and NOOSE,  HENRY, and THE WORLD OF were. Funny, but I didn't know about AFRICA until I read the Mulholland book. It never aired back then on my local stations. Only saw it when I rented it on VHS. Now I've seen it dozens of times. I usually skipped watching the airing of HENRY after the first couple of times.

I've seen the TV episodes just as much as the Universals, since they were always on. They sometimes showed them during rain delays of Yankee games, or "we will now join Abbott and Costello, already in progress" if the Yankee game ended earlier than expected. I always wondered -- what did they do, start the 16mm projector during the game, even though they weren't airing it? I don't have them memorized since they weren't very focused, at least not the first season. I know all the routines, though. I have my crib notes that I mentioned before, to identify which episode had which routine in the first season.

The second season usually had Costello mixed up with a mobster's, boxer's, or wrestler's wife. So they all merge together in my mind. BARBER LOU, AMNESIA, PRIVATE EYE, FENCING MASTER, WELL OILED and UNCLE BOZZO'S VISIT stand out in my mind as the best of the second season. The rest are - well -- at least somewhat watchable, but there might be another gem or two in there that I'm forgetting.(TBH, the second season really isn't as bad as it's reputation would indicate. You really need to hand-pick the good episodes, like what I just did.) Hillary only shows up in one episode, but that was an out-take from season one. No Stinky, no Bacciagalupe, and Sid Fields is barely given any comedy to do -- what a waste of his talent. The final episode, BARBER LOU, uses extensive out-takes from season one, and actually has the feel of a season one episode. I've always suspected that the rubdown scene was actually an out-take from season one too, but it has only been confirmed that the incident with the traffic cop was from season one's filming. The rubdown scene has very few cuts between shots, giving it the feeling of a live broadcast.

There are a few season one episodes that I dislike, despite the fact that many people get a warm-fuzzy feeling when they talk about all season one. My favorite, hands down, is GETTING A JOB. My least favorite, again hands down, is BINGO/LICENSE FOR BINGO/CHIMPANZEE. (This episode holds the distinction of being known by the most number of titles. Bob Furmanek recently set the record straight -- it's CHIMPANZEE.)

Bob also claims that Rita Moreno was in one episode, ALASKA. Years ago, on the A&C forum, we all concluded that it was not Rita Moreno. Bob recently posted a scan somewhere showing the production paperwork, and it does say Rita Moreno. My theory is that it was a Rita Moreno, not the Rita Moreno, who went onto a highly successful, award-winning career. At 90, she is still active today.

The girl in ALASKA does not look like, nor sound like the Rita we all know. I even looked at a clip of her from SINGIN' IN THE RAIN, filmed around the same time. She does not look like the girl in this clip:



What do all of you think? In any case, the girl in the clip has plenty of pulchritude!  ;)

According to Wikipedia (which is of course infallible), this is not listed as one of her TV credits. It says in 1950 she appeared in 3 films (I assume in small roles, but her characters did have a name, unlike in ALASKA.) In one of those, she was credited as Rosita Moreno. Season one of A&C started filming in 1951. (Perhaps all episodes were filmed that year, I'm not sure.) The Furmanek book states that the first 6 episodes were filmed at the end of May 1951. ALASKA was episode 6.  In 1952, she appeared in 4 episodes of a few TV series (2 for Fireside Theatre).

Given that she had already appeared as named characters in 3 films, I really doubt she would have taken this brief appearance on A&C to simply be eye-candy. I have been unable to quickly find out when SINGIN' IN THE RAIN was filmed, and I have just seen conflicting information (surprise!). One site says it was actually first released in 1951, but then pulled so as not to compete with AN AMERICAN IN PARIS, and another site repeats the story, but changes it to 1952 and the re-release of PARIS, since it had just won the best picture at the 1952 Academy Awards (for 1951 films.) The latter story says it was pulled in the Spring of 1952, so I assume most of the filming was probably done in 1951. Again, would Rita take this insignificant "role" in an A&C episode, scantily clad, at a time when she was good enough to be cast in SINGIN' IN THE RAIN? I think not.

Again, the proof-in-the-pudding is the above clip -- that is not the Rita Moreno, but simply an actress with the same name.






Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline metaldams

I grew up in southern CT in the 80’s and got WPIX (my memories of Yankee games back then are Rizutto talking about his golf game and grandkids, I’m actually a Red Sox fan) and do remember Bud and Lou being aired, as well as MARCH OF THE WOODEN SOLDIERS/BABES IN TOYLAND during the holidays.  As a kid I watched The Three Stooges way more, lost touch with classic comedy in my teens and got back into it in my early twenties.  I discovered non Stooge comedians thanks to this then new thing called the Internet and got to know Bud and Lou better in those times.  I really didn’t even know Laurel and Hardy at the time except for the one film mentioned.

I’ve seen all the Bud and Lou movies, have all of them in my collection, but I would say only my absolute favorites if theirs I have memorized.  It’s great you have those memories of seeing them on TV during Yankee rain delays, that’s a great story.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline NoahYoung

Yes, thanks -- sometimes it was the Twilight Zone during rain delays, too. Holy Cow, I need another cannoli, White. What do you think, Messer?

Ur a Red Sox fan? I have 2 words for you -- Bucky Dent.
I know you were less than a year old then. :D
Another 2 words: Bill Buckner. I actually rooted for the Sox in that World Series. I hate the Mets!
 [3stooges]

So is it, or is it not, the real Rita Moreno? As Richard N. Hughes on WPIX used to say after his editorials at the end of news broadcasts -- "What's your opinion? We'd like to know."
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline metaldams

I’m not familiar enough with Rita Moreno to make a good judgment.  Looked her up and while I am familiar of some roles and films by reputation (West Side Story, Singin’ In the Rain), nothing she’s done is really in my wheelhouse.

Bucky Dent?  I was in the womb.   [pie]  Aaron Boone is more recent and even after that, a lot has (clears throat) happened since.  Hopefully there’ll be a season this year.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline HomokHarcos

I guess this is an unpopular opinion, but I prefer the second season as I'm more into the slapstick and sitcom type humor than the routines. For a similar reason I also prefer their post-war movies.


Offline NoahYoung

Yes, there are many good second season episodes. I looked through the list and there are a few more I didn't mention.
They used up all the routines in season one. I'm glad they made season two, but I wished they retained the parts on stage addressing the audience. They also switched the studio where they filmed them. Season one was at the Hal Roach Studios, and you can recognize some buildings from L&H films when they are walking down the street.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline Marshall

I really enjoyed The Abbott and Costello Show Season One Blu-ray that Bob Furmanek and his team worked on. Picture and sound quality is tremendous, and A & C's routines are great.  Honestly, I don't think I've seen any season two episodes. I hadn't seen many season one shows before the Blu-ray  set, too, even on Decades. Joe as Stinky is quite a unique character, with a 43 year old man playing a "kid" in a Little Lord Flaunteroy outfit.

Here's my review I just finished on The Abbott and Costello Show Season One BluRay set from ClassicFlix:  https://discover.hubpages.com/entertainment/The-Abbott-and-Costello-Show-Season-1-Blu-ray-set-Review

Marshall


Offline NoahYoung

I will definitely read that review. I've read others, and have seen what ClassicFlix has posted on youtube.

If I didn't already have the Passport DVD set, I'd jump on it. I don't even have a Blu-Ray player, as my 1080p viewing is limited to cable and streaming services. I believe Passport used the Shanachie masters, which, albeit in lower resolution, had great film elements to work with. They definitely did not have a dupey look to them. (I have a 16mm dupe of an episode and the DVD looks way better.) The only season one episode that left something to be desired in terms of picture quality was JAIL.

I may be in the minority, but I'm not a fan of Stinky. The only other character that makes me groan more when he appears on screen is Bingo.

I've watched a bunch of episodes recently, and I can say a few things (and keep in mind I love season one, and the show in general):

- I've felt this way for a long time -- I like the renditions of their routines in the movies better, for the most part. (Crazy House is better in the show though, and some routines do not appear in the movies.)

- The editing is rough, and I don't mean for episodes as a whole. I'm talking individual scenes. Take PEACE AND QUIET, for example. Murray Leonard shows up out of nowhere when he meets Costello at the "hospital."

- The looney "hospital" is a thinly-veiled rooming house set.

- Sometimes the opening credit card held by one of the girls on stage doesn't accurately reflect who's in an episode.

- They didn't do a good job of creating the twin-waitress effect in HUNGRY, as you see Bud and Lou move in a jump shot when Joan Shawlee switches characters.

- Hillary clearly ad-libs a line in MUSIC LOVER when she starts explaining to Lou that her Dad didn't have breakfast.

- In that same episode, when the father mistakes Lou for Hillary, I think it was an unscripted mistake that they left in. I don't think Lou (who financed the show) wanted to waste film!

- You can clearly see that the piano in that episode is a prop, since the keyboard is lop-sided. It had to be a prop, since they destroyed it in the end.





Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline NoahYoung

I’m not familiar enough with Rita Moreno to make a good judgment.  Looked her up and while I am familiar of some roles and films by reputation (West Side Story, Singin’ In the Rain), nothing she’s done is really in my wheelhouse.

Bucky Dent?  I was in the womb.   [pie]  Aaron Boone is more recent and even after that, a lot has (clears throat) happened since.  Hopefully there’ll be a season this year.

Since I posted that, I've checked out many more photos of Rita Moreno from that decade -- to me, she does not look at all like the girl in that A&C show clip.

Ahem...the Yankees have won 27 World Championships. The Red Sox have won 9.
 [woot]

Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline hiramhorwitz

So is it, or is it not, the real Rita Moreno? As Richard N. Hughes on WPIX used to say after his editorials at the end of news broadcasts -- "What's your opinion? We'd like to know."

I'm not trying to be a wiseguy, but to me, it surely looks and sounds like the 1951 version of the Rita Moreno who's still around today.  Here are two pix of her from the 1950-1951 time frame - same eyes, same eyebrows, same nose, same hair (length and color), and same thin dancer's body as in the A&C clip, at least in my mind.



« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 06:02:34 AM by metaldams »


Offline metaldams

That picture thing doesn’t always work, so I took the links and added them as attachments.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline hiramhorwitz

That picture thing doesn’t always work, so I took the links and added them as attachments.

Thank you, sir!


Offline NoahYoung

I'm not trying to be a wiseguy, but to me, it surely looks and sounds like the 1951 version of the Rita Moreno who's still around today.  Here are two pix of her from the 1950-1951 time frame - same eyes, same eyebrows, same nose, same hair (length and color), and same thin dancer's body as in the A&C clip, at least in my mind.





Thanks, that is helpful. (You're not coming across as a wiseguy.  :)) That certainly looks more like the girl in the A&C clip. When I searched, even the younger pics of Rita looked a lot more like the Rita of later years, though.
I'm not doubting you, but to me, in this pic of Rita (probably at least 10 years later), she has a different look that to this day kinda defines her facial look.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Rita_Moreno_%281963%29.jpg/800px-Rita_Moreno_%281963%29.jpg

As an aside, 33 year ago I dated a girl who I thought looked like Rita Moreno. When I mentioned it to her, she was NOT flattered, for some reason. I only said it when she happened to bring Rita up in a conversation. She came from the same heritage as Rita, too.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline Marshall

I will definitely read that review. I've read others, and have seen what ClassicFlix has posted on youtube.

If I didn't already have the Passport DVD set, I'd jump on it. I don't even have a Blu-Ray player, as my 1080p viewing is limited to cable and streaming services. I believe Passport used the Shanachie masters, which, albeit in lower resolution, had great film elements to work with. They definitely did not have a dupey look to them. (I have a 16mm dupe of an episode and the DVD looks way better.) The only season one episode that left something to be desired in terms of picture quality was JAIL.

I may be in the minority, but I'm not a fan of Stinky. The only other character that makes me groan more when he appears on screen is Bingo.

I've watched a bunch of episodes recently, and I can say a few things (and keep in mind I love season one, and the show in general):

- I've felt this way for a long time -- I like the renditions of their routines in the movies better, for the most part. (Crazy House is better in the show though, and some routines do not appear in the movies.)

- The editing is rough, and I don't mean for episodes as a whole. I'm talking individual scenes. Take PEACE AND QUIET, for example. Murray Leonard shows up out of nowhere when he meets Costello at the "hospital."

- The looney "hospital" is a thinly-veiled rooming house set.

- Sometimes the opening credit card held by one of the girls on stage doesn't accurately reflect who's in an episode.

- They didn't do a good job of creating the twin-waitress effect in HUNGRY, as you see Bud and Lou move in a jump shot when Joan Shawlee switches characters.

- Hillary clearly ad-libs a line in MUSIC LOVER when she starts explaining to Lou that her Dad didn't have breakfast.

- In that same episode, when the father mistakes Lou for Hillary, I think it was an unscripted mistake that they left in. I don't think Lou (who financed the show) wanted to waste film!

- You can clearly see that the piano in that episode is a prop, since the keyboard is lop-sided. It had to be a prop, since they destroyed it in the end.

Thanks for the comments, Noah. Wow, you definitely know your Abbott ad Costello TV Show info. Bob Furmanek has a short bonus feature on the ClassicFlix set where he talks about these restored shows. He said that  this is the first time  (in the ClassicFlix Blu-ray or DVD set) that viewers are seeing the show taken from the camera negatives.  It's a bit technical to me,  but the audio's from the push-pull tracks of the time which created excellent sound.  This is in my article, but here's the quick YouTube video about the transfers with comparisons https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfRdfEB53Xg&t=60s   .

I'll have to take a look at Joe Besser's solo Columbia shorts. I have the disc with some of his and Shemp's starring  films on it, but have never watched it.

Marshall


Offline NoahYoung

Actually, I had already read your article. Nice work.

Maybe if I had a Blu-Ray machine, I'd dive in for the new set. But physical media is going the way of the dodo bird. I spend enough time already keeping my Super 8, Standard 8mm, and 16mm projectors in working order. Fixing a DVD, VHS, or Blu-Ray player is way beyond my skill set. I tried to fix a DVD drive door that wouldn't open and gave up, so I tossed the whole thing in the garbage. I'm down to 2 working DVD players, and one working VCR.

Do the episodes with the laugh track have the sweetened laugh track, or just the "live" audience laugh track recorded when the film was shown to an audience? I believe the Passport DVDs have the "sweetened" laugh track.

I used to know Bob Furmanek over 20 years ago. I once attended a 35mm screening at his house -- L&H, Stooges, and A&C. He lives about 20 minutes from me. His nephew and my daughter went to pre-school together -- I met his sister-in-law at my daughter's birthday party many years ago. I told her I knew Bob and watched an A&C film at his house -- she said "oh yea, he loves A&C." Her husband Ron remastered some Sinatra CDs which I have. I never met Ron, though.

I also used to know Bob Greenberg and Ray Faiola many years ago when I was a member of the Sons of the Desert. Bob still performs as Costello and sometimes as Oliver Hardy. They both do commentaries on the set from what I have read. Ray screened the ALASKA episode at one Sons meeting -- that's the one he does commentary on, so I'm guessing that's one of his favorite episodes.






 
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline Marshall

Actually, I had already read your article. Nice work.

Maybe if I had a Blu-Ray machine, I'd dive in for the new set. But physical media is going the way of the dodo bird. I spend enough time already keeping my Super 8, Standard 8mm, and 16mm projectors in working order. Fixing a DVD, VHS, or Blu-Ray player is way beyond my skill set. I tried to fix a DVD drive door that wouldn't open and gave up, so I tossed the whole thing in the garbage. I'm down to 2 working DVD players, and one working VCR.

Do the episodes with the laugh track have the sweetened laugh track, or just the "live" audience laugh track recorded when the film was shown to an audience? I believe the Passport DVDs have the "sweetened" laugh track.

I used to know Bob Furmanek over 20 years ago. I once attended a 35mm screening at his house -- L&H, Stooges, and A&C. He lives about 20 minutes from me. His nephew and my daughter went to pre-school together -- I met his sister-in-law at my daughter's birthday party many years ago. I told her I knew Bob and watched an A&C film at his house -- she said "oh yea, he loves A&C." Her husband Ron remastered some Sinatra CDs which I have. I never met Ron, though.

I also used to know Bob Greenberg and Ray Faiola many years ago when I was a member of the Sons of the Desert. Bob still performs as Costello and sometimes as Oliver Hardy. They both do commentaries on the set from what I have read. Ray screened the ALASKA episode at one Sons meeting -- that's the one he does commentary on, so I'm guessing that's one of his favorite episodes.

Thanks for the kind words, too, Noah. I know of Ron Furmanek, too. He worked on restoring some Beatles projects in the 1990's, including The Beatles at Shea Stadium and the Let It Be film.

You're right, Bob Greenberg and Ray Faiola do commentaries on the set. Ray did the commentary for Alaska, which has the brief appearance by Rita Moreno in it. Bob is one of five commentators for the Actor's Home episode, which has A & C doing the Who's On First routine in it.

The episodes in this set  have the "live" audience laugh track, except for the two complete shows and six partial ones without the audience tracks.

I understand what you mean about keeping the projectors in working order. I do have a question for you in that regard. I have a 16mm Bell and Howell projector, and want to clean my films. What brand would you recommend to buy for that? I purchased Ecco, which seemed to work fine, many years ago. But, it's not being made anymore.

Marshall



Offline NoahYoung

Marshall,

I have only ever used the following film cleaners: Vita-Film (original production, I've never tried the one now produced by a new manufacturer), and Larry Urbanski's Film Renew. I last used the former over a quarter century ago. For the latter, I bought a big jug about 25 years ago, and I have about enough left to clean one last film. I recommend Film Renew. Both have a horrible smell, but Film Renew is less horrible. Just use in a well-ventilated area -- preferably where you can open a window.

I use cleaners more-so for lubrication, particularly for Super 8 and 8mm since my projectors are more finicky to get prints to run smoothly. I used to clean a pre-owned film when I bought it before projecting it, but I no longer do that unless it has the jitters during its first (by me) screening, or if I see the frame edges filling up with dust right away, and/or hair/dust, etc. swimming across the projected image. In other words, if it isn't broke, I don't fix it.

I have soaked films in Film Renew, too. Just make sure they are not on plastic reels, else the reels will discolor, and also weaken and break if soaked too long. When cleaning, I feed to metal reels. I can usually immediately rewind back onto plastic, as long as I didn't overdo it with the Film Renew. In that case, the worst that can happen would possibly be some slight discoloration of the reel.

I'm curious what model B&H you have, Marshall. I have two 16mm projectors, an Elmo 16CL, and a "B&H" 3585, which is just a re-badged
Eiki SNT. I much prefer the Eiki, but I only have a 50mm lens for it, and with my throw I can't fill my screen. I have a 38mm lens for the Elmo which fills the screen.

Regarding the A&C SHOW, thanks for confirming the laugh tracks are the unsweetened ones. I'm pretty sure the Passport DVDs contain the sweetened ones. I believe my 16mm print of TELEVISION is unsweetened, but am not 100% positive.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline Marshall

Marshall,

I have only ever used the following film cleaners: Vita-Film (original production, I've never tried the one now produced by a new manufacturer), and Larry Urbanski's Film Renew. I last used the former over a quarter century ago. For the latter, I bought a big jug about 25 years ago, and I have about enough left to clean one last film. I recommend Film Renew. Both have a horrible smell, but Film Renew is less horrible. Just use in a well-ventilated area -- preferably where you can open a window.

I use cleaners more-so for lubrication, particularly for Super 8 and 8mm since my projectors are more finicky to get prints to run smoothly. I used to clean a pre-owned film when I bought it before projecting it, but I no longer do that unless it has the jitters during its first (by me) screening, or if I see the frame edges filling up with dust right away, and/or hair/dust, etc. swimming across the projected image. In other words, if it isn't broke, I don't fix it.

I have soaked films in Film Renew, too. Just make sure they are not on plastic reels, else the reels will discolor, and also weaken and break if soaked too long. When cleaning, I feed to metal reels. I can usually immediately rewind back onto plastic, as long as I didn't overdo it with the Film Renew. In that case, the worst that can happen would possibly be some slight discoloration of the reel.

I'm curious what model B&H you have, Marshall. I have two 16mm projectors, an Elmo 16CL, and a "B&H" 3585, which is just a re-badged
Eiki SNT. I much prefer the Eiki, but I only have a 50mm lens for it, and with my throw I can't fill my screen. I have a 38mm lens for the Elmo which fills the screen.

Regarding the A&C SHOW, thanks for confirming the laugh tracks are the unsweetened ones. I'm pretty sure the Passport DVDs contain the sweetened ones. I believe my 16mm print of TELEVISION is unsweetened, but am not 100% positive.
Noah,
Thanks for your info, too, about the film cleaners and more. I haven't used the 16mm projector in several years, and want to lubricate and clean the films before playing them again. The Ecco cleaner didn't have a noticeable small to it, but as I mentioned, it's not being made anymore.

I have a B & H 2580 slot load 16mm projector that I bought used in the 1990's. I like it, but  it  also doesn't fill the screen. That's no big deal, and a zoom lens would probably be too expensive for it. I bought the projector, initially, as I purchased several prints of the 1960's Beatles Cartoon Series (I'm a big Beatles fan). My other prints are a couple of cartoon shows with original commercials from the 60's, as well as  a Honeymousers Warner Brothers cartoon (Honeymooners spoof), a Popeye cartoon, and some commercials themselves from the 60s and 70's.  Is the Elmo 16CL the Telecine projector?  If so, I used one at the  San Francisco TV station I worked at about 20 years ago to copy some of my prints to VHS then.  That's a nice projector.

I also have a Bell and Howell Super 8 Sound projector that I bought when I was in high school, and haven't used since the 80's!  The silent Stooges films (abridged) from  before that time, I have still at home, are Three Little Pigskins and Goofs and Saddles.

The A & C Television Show episode that you have in 16mm can be watched with or without the audience track on the Blu-ray release.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend,
Marshall


Offline NoahYoung

Marshall,

My Elmo 16CL is not for telecine, but they did make a telecine version of it.
Regarding your B&H, lenses for that are plentiful and usually fairly inexpensive as opposed to ones for Elmos and Eikis. Zooms are hard to get at a reasonable price, but a 1.5 inch lens would probably be a good upgrade for you.
Don't want to jinx you,  :), but the 2500 series is notorious for cracked worm gears. Hope you don't have the issue. You will know if it is very noisy when it runs. The good news is that there is an after-market replacement for it that is made of better material. The bad news is that it is a bear to install (from what I've heard) unless you pay to have it done -- which would cost more than to just buy another 16mm projector make/model that doesn't have worm gear issues.

Here's the link to get Film Renew and other cleaners: https://urbanskifilm.com/supplies.html
New worm gears: https://www.urbanskifilm.com/projectors.html

I have a B&H Super 8 sound projector that I bought just a few months ago: 33SR. It was made for B&H by Yamawa in Japan.

Enjoy your weekend, too, and good luck with your films!
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz