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Weak Stooges or Weak Keaton?

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Offline metaldams

Very simple question.  Since you guys don't seem to be thrilled with the majority of the MGM and Educational Keaton shorts, I'll ask you, what's worse, weaker Keaton or weaker Stooges?  I have my opinion, but I'd like yours first.
- Doug Sarnecky


There is nothing worse than the bad Stooges flicks.  They have a nightmarish quality that neither the bad Busters  nor anything else has.


Offline Moose Malloy

I gotta agree with the Big Chief on this one (but I don't recall seeing any sort of educational Stooge short)


Offline Umbrella Sam

Kind of hard to compare, considering that the Stooges’ weaker shorts barely even qualify as shorts, since the studio relied so much on stock footage. To be honest, I’m surprised that the studio stayed open for as long as it did. They may as well have done what MGM eventually did with the Tom and Jerry shorts: just reissue older shorts and save even more money.

The thing with Keaton at Educational is that in the weakest shorts, he himself does not seem that invested in what’s going on. At MGM and Columbia, this was understandable since the studios clearly didn’t know what to do with him. However, judging by shorts like ONE RUN ELMER and GRAND SLAM OPERA, it’s clear that Keaton had more opportunity to do better than he did at Educational. Sure, the budgets were low, but the Stooges could work well with low budgets. They only needed one room, and they still could pull off some really funny material in original shorts like TRICKY DICKS. You could blame some of the problems with Keaton’s weaker shorts on his drinking, but as we’ve established, he did get sober during this period, so a lot of it was him just not caring about the material.

That being said, I’d still say as a whole that the weaker Stooges were worse. Besser came across as super annoying in his Stooges shorts, whereas Jimmy Durante simply just didn’t fit as a partner for Keaton, and Keaton never attempted anything as bad as making films after a co-star had died and pretending that co-star was still alive.
“I’ll take a milkshake...with sour milk!” -Shemp (Punchy Cowpunchers, 1950)

My blog: https://talk-about-cinema.blogspot.com


Offline metaldams

Kind of hard to compare, considering that the Stooges’ weaker shorts barely even qualify as shorts, since the studio relied so much on stock footage. To be honest, I’m surprised that the studio stayed open for as long as it did. They may as well have done what MGM eventually did with the Tom and Jerry shorts: just reissue older shorts and save even more money.

The thing with Keaton at Educational is that in the weakest shorts, he himself does not seem that invested in what’s going on. At MGM and Columbia, this was understandable since the studios clearly didn’t know what to do with him. However, judging by shorts like ONE RUN ELMER and GRAND SLAM OPERA, it’s clear that Keaton had more opportunity to do better than he did at Educational. Sure, the budgets were low, but the Stooges could work well with low budgets. They only needed one room, and they still could pull off some really funny material in original shorts like TRICKY DICKS. You could blame some of the problems with Keaton’s weaker shorts on his drinking, but as we’ve established, he did get sober during this period, so a lot of it was him just not caring about the material.

That being said, I’d still say as a whole that the weaker Stooges were worse. Besser came across as super annoying in his Stooges shorts, whereas Jimmy Durante simply just didn’t fit as a partner for Keaton, and Keaton never attempted anything as bad as making films after a co-star had died and pretending that co-star was still alive.

The Stooges in their heyday worked 5 day schedules, so all they knew was low budgets.  I think Keaton was so accustomed to mechanical, well thought out gags and working several weeks that he became frustrated on a few days work.  Yeah, no doubt The Three Stooges were better low budget comedians than Keaton.

That being said, even Keaton at his lowest always had one little moment or two where there was a nice Keaton touch, be it a fall, gag, or gesture.  The Stooges, with their worst Besser shorts (I'm talking worst three or four, the best have their moments), have nothing remotely Stoogian.  In HORSING AROUND, Moe apologizes for getting mad!  In SWEET AND HOT, that ain't even Moe.  Then throw in the stock footage jobs and doubles for a dead Shemp - Keaton never went that low. Oh, and drunk Keaton in the later MGM's is nowhere close to being as sad as sick Curly.  When it comes to shorts, I really believe every Keaton film has something to recommend, as minor a moment as it may be at times.  Low Stooges?  Not so much.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline Moose Malloy

I wonder: what if one hadn't seen anything other than the Besser shorts? Would they be as wretched with no basis of comparison?


Offline metaldams

I wonder: what if one hadn't seen anything other than the Besser shorts? Would they be as wretched with no basis of comparison?

I think if only the Besser shorts existed, The Stooges would be unknown except to the most hardcore comedy short enthusiast.  That said, there's still be the rest of the non Stooge comedy shorts to compare to.  Even there, the Besser era, as a whole, doesn't hold up.  Cheap shorts with older men lacking in much comic chemistry.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline Moose Malloy

I think if only the Besser shorts existed, The Stooges would be unknown except to the most hardcore comedy short enthusiast.  That said, there's still be the rest of the non Stooge comedy shorts to compare to.  Even there, the Besser era, as a whole, doesn't hold up.  Cheap shorts with older men lacking in much comic chemistry.
Your reply got me thinking (weakening nation) ...w/o the Curly era to precede it a producer would swallow his cigar if someone screened/pitched those  Besser atrocities, and that goes double for the De Rita movies. Ed Wood would have passed on 'em!


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Offline Steveb

I like most of Keaton's Educational shorts because the give Buster room to inject his "business" that MGM hadn't.