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Malice In the Palace (1949)

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Offline hiramhorwitz

Hiram what else did you ask Larry about? Did  you create a transcript of the conversations?
I didn't ask too many questions.  Mainly we talked, covering a breadth of subjects including vaudeville, movies, television, sports, his family, his favorite Stooges shorts, his daily activities, the other members of the Stooges, the Stooge supporting players, and Larry's desire to visit his hometown of Philadelphia one more time.  Unfortunately, I didn't transcribe the discussion.  However, a year prior to my visit, my dad had visited Larry, asking him my list of questions, and making an audio recording of the questions and answers.  That was prior to publication of Stroke of Luck or any of the other Stooge-related books that followed -- so, as you can imagine, I found those answers revelational.

Attached below is an autographed snapshot from my April 1974 visit, showing Larry holding a painting he had just finished.  Seems like just yesterday.   


Offline Paul Pain

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I didn't ask too many questions.  Mainly we talked, covering a breadth of subjects including vaudeville, movies, television, sports, his family, his favorite Stooges shorts, his daily activities, the other members of the Stooges, the Stooge supporting players, and Larry's desire to visit his hometown of Philadelphia one more time.  Unfortunately, I didn't transcribe the discussion.  However, one year prior to my visit, my dad had visited Larry, asking him my list of questions, and making an audio recording of the questions and answers.  That was prior to publication of Stroke of Luck or any of the other Stooge-related books that followed -- so, as you can imagine, I found those answers revelational.

Attached below is a autographed snapshot from my April 1974 visit, showing Larry holding a painting he had just finished.  Seems like just yesterday.   

Looks like Larry was a very good artist!  I take it you and Larry got a lot of chances to communicate with each other over the last couple years of his life?  It sounds like he took the time to share as much as he could with you.
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Offline hiramhorwitz

I take it you and Larry got a lot of chances to communicate with each other over the last couple years of his life?  It sounds like he took the time to share as much as he could with you.
I corresponded with Larry for about a year and a half, starting in March 1973 and tailing off in the second half of 1974 when his health declined.  That correspondence included about a dozen letters, my dad's April 1973 visit, and my April 1974 visit.  Larry was certainly generous with his fans - always taking the time to respond with handwritten letters, publicity pictures, and/or personal inscriptions and autographs.  It wasn't just me - it was everyone who contacted him - each receiving a personal response.  There were definitely no obvious limits on what Larry would share.       


Offline Paul Pain

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An observation: all that stuff Larry is cutting in the kitchen, yet there is nothing on the table that would have needed cutting up...

Things we aren't supposed to notice.
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Offline Mark The Shark

Summer 2003 -- Issue #106 of The Three Stooges Journal arrives and contains Brent Seguine's article providing additional clues.  Most importantly, the article highlights two lines of dialogue written for a chef character in the original script.  These include "Fix it yourself...I'm going to lunch" and "Certainly...you don't think I'd eat in this dump."   Based on this, it is pretty clear that a small chef role was part of the original plan, and based on the publicity still, that role was intended for Curly.

Back in 1989 there was an article in The Three Stooges Journal called "Notes from a meeting with Moe Howard"

http://threestooges.net/journal/view/50

I don't have it in front of me, but from memory the author took several notes during one of Moe's lectures in the early 1970s. The author mentioned this was before any books had been written on the Stooges (aside from a chapter in one or two Leonard Maltin books) and Moe spoke of Curly's illness and retirement. From memory -- Moe had said after Curly's retirement, he "appeared twice later -- on a train, and as a chef who left to go somewhere else to eat." This absolutely corroborates the above. Now, whether it was actually filmed or not, who knows -- and since the footage went unused and was presumably junked, I guess it doesn't matter.

Quote
Last couple of years -- Various issues of Three Stooges Journal have included candid photos of Curly in the post-stroke era.  Most show him seated, with a cane.  Seeing these photos is wonderful.  But they do make clear that Curly’s glory days were behind him by this point in his life.  Also fueling the Malice debate has been a series of photo comparisons, showing the facial features of the chef in the publicity still versus the facial characteristics of Curly taken from other sources.  In my opinion, these comparisons make clear that the chef in the publicity still is indeed Curly.

2015 – When I look at the Malice publicity still now, I see it in a very different light.  I look at the piece of furniture directly behind Curly (to me, it appears to be flush against him) and see it as a support system providing stability so Curly doesn’t fall backwards.  Similarly, I see Curly’s left hand on Larry’s head as being a means of maintaining Curly’s balance, with Larry serving as the anchor.  Lastly, I wonder if the apron around Curly’s lower body conceals something providing additional support to him, like a brace.

The things that come with the passage of time!

The above makes a lot of sense. I'll have to go back and watch the relevant parts again, but there are a lot of clips from Howard family home movies in the recent Hey Moe! Hey Dad! documentary miniseries, and I recall at least one that appeared to be "post-retirement" Curly (maybe Joan's wedding, or his own wedding?) where he appeared to be in better shape than is generally described. But then, (1) whether it's from 1947 or 1949 probably makes a big difference in his health, and (2) whatever I saw had to have been only a seconds-long clip. I think the brothers are standing together and Shemp walks over to Curly and kisses him. One would "like to think" that Curly would have been up to saying two lines, but the scene in question wouldn't have been scrapped for no reason...

One other thing...I wonder health-wise, if by the time of filming Hold That Lion! Curly was in better or worse shape than he'd been when filming his last shorts. Again, it probably doesn't matter...


Offline hiramhorwitz

Back in 1989 there was an article in The Three Stooges Journal called "Notes from a meeting with Moe Howard"

http://threestooges.net/journal/view/50

I don't have it in front of me, but from memory the author took several notes during one of Moe's lectures in the early 1970s. The author mentioned this was before any books had been written on the Stooges (aside from a chapter in one or two Leonard Maltin books) and Moe spoke of Curly's illness and retirement. From memory -- Moe had said after Curly's retirement, he "appeared twice later -- on a train, and as a chef who left to go somewhere else to eat." This absolutely corroborates the above. Now, whether it was actually filmed or not, who knows -- and since the footage went unused and was presumably junked, I guess it doesn't matter.
Amazing --  I had no recollection of that article in Issue 50.  However, after reading what you posted, I grabbed my copy from the file cabinet and perused it from front to back.  Aside from the remarkable consistency between Moe's description of the chef character and the lost dialogue identified by Brent in Issue 106, I was struck by two other aspects of Issue 50.  One, this was the issue that re-started my Journal subscription after a multi-year lapse; and two, that a photograph of Larry Fine and myself appeared on the page directly opposite the "meeting with Moe" article.  At the time, I didn't know Gary Lassin and he didn't know me.  So I called him to tell him that I was the unidentified individual in the photograph.  And Gary's slightly sardonic response was....."Do you still look like that???"  We've been friends ever since.     


Offline Desmond Of The Outer Sanctorum

Just happened to watch this one... Has anyone else ever noticed that Larry puts the hot dogs in front of the customer who ordered the lamb, and vice versa?
"Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day." -- Samuel Goldwyn

The people who have your best interests at heart...
...are generally not the ones telling you whatever you want to hear.


Offline Dr. Hugo Gansamacher

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Just happened to watch this one... Has anyone else ever noticed that Larry puts the hot dogs in front of the customer who ordered the lamb, and vice versa?

No doubt that's what provokes them to draw their daggers on Moe and Shemp.   ;)



Offline Shemp_Diesel

Judging by the famous publicity photo of Curly from this short, he must have been in one of his up periods after trying to recover his health, but it's still hard for me to imagine Jules White trying to film Curly doing any sort of physical comedy, much less chasing after the other stooges, or a dog and cat.

Talbot's body is the perfect home for the Monster's brain, which I will add to and subtract from in my experiments.


Offline hiramhorwitz

"Malice in the Palace: Curly Howard's Final Film Revisited" (Comique, Spring 2022)

https://archive.org/details/comique-the-classic-comedy-magazine-issue-no.-2/page/136/mode/2up
Congrats to you Doctor!  I see you were acknowledged with special thanks on page 3.  Keep up the good woik!


Offline Freddie Sanborn

There’s also a 1942 interview with Hugh McCollum, in which Elsie Ames is described as “a looker.” Well worth downloading this magazine, in spite of that.
“If it’s not comedy, I fall asleep.” Harpo Marx


Offline metaldams

Thanks for pointing out the article - and the magazine in general.  Looks like I have a lot of reading to do.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline metaldams

Just read the article, very well researched and informative.  Scripts are shown, correspondence and interviews with Moe, Larry and Jules White are used.  This is a pretty definitive account about the whole Curly in MALICE IN THE PALACE situation and if Paul Gierucki is reading this - thank you.

Edit: Want to add, the Curly side by side comparison photo with DIZZY PILOTS is also interesting.  Respect to those of you who have the Sherlock Holmes gene.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline Umbrella Sam

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I agree, that was a very interesting article and seems like an interesting magazine overall. The side by side comparison was especially interesting.
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Offline Paul Pain

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Great article for sure.  I learned a lot reading it.  Moe's account of Curly's stroke was literally heart-breaking; I almost cried reading it.
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Offline metaldams

Great article for sure.  I learned a lot reading it.  Moe's account of Curly's stroke was literally heart-breaking; I almost cried reading it.

Same here.  It’s been a while since I read Moe’s bio and his account of Curly’s stroke was really heart breaking.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline Big Chief Apumtagribonitz

Paul Pain, I'm puzzled by your observation ( made a scant seven years ago )  of a fifteen-second clip of reused footage in this short with a dead guy in it.  For the life of me I can't figure out where that occurs and who the dead guy is.  Care to enlighten me?


Offline Paul Pain

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Paul Pain, I'm puzzled by your observation ( made a scant seven years ago )  of a fifteen-second clip of reused footage in this short with a dead guy in it.  For the life of me I can't figure out where that occurs and who the dead guy is.  Care to enlighten me?

The scene of the boys approaching the palace gate is stock footage from WEE WEE MONSIEUR.  That footage includes the already-deceased Bert Young.
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Offline stoogesfan06

I always wondered how Curlys cameo would have been, had they went through with it


Offline Daddy Dewdrop

Wow, it's been nearly two years since I posted to this site.  A few years ago, I watched all 190 shorts and ranked them from least favorite to most favorite.  This one comes in at #85 overall.  And the countdown continues!