Topic: If Larry Fine was born in Philadelphia . . .

[Dr. Hugo Gansamacher]

If Larry Fine was born in Philadelphia (as Louis Feinberg), then why has he got a New York accent? In fact, he has a stronger New York accent than the Brooklyn-bred Howard brothers. I looked through some biographical materials on line and found nothing to indicate that Larry ever moved to New York City in his boyhood. In fact, this page specifically mentions his playing the violin in a concert in Philadelphia when he was ten.

The accent that we hear from Larry in the shorts sounds nothing like any samples that I have observed of Philadelphia speech or anything that I have learned of it from reading. For instance, the Wikipedia article "Philadelphia Dialect" flatly asserts that Philadelphia accents are rhotic, i.e., that the consonant /r/ is always pronounced after vowels (with the exception of the second "r" in the street name "Girard")---in contrast to New York accents, in which post-vocalic /r/ is often deleted. Larry is quite conspicuously an "r"-dropper---even moreso than Moe, Curly, and Shemp, I think. His vowels likewise are pure working-class New York and, so far as I can tell, show none of the traits of Philadelphian accents (like "vurry" for "very"). Yet Larry's accent seems perfectly natural and consistent, as if it were the one with which he had grown up.

It is possible that Larry, at some point in his early adulthood, moved to New York and acquired a local working-class accent. But if so, the transformation is pretty remarkable. People who try to acquire a new accent in their native language in adulthood are rarely entirely successful: they tend to end up with an inconsistent accent, with traces of the old one frequently showing through. I see no such traces in Larry's speech.

Anyway, if anyone knows any biographical specifics that would resolve this puzzle, I would like to hear them.

[stooge1029]

He was raised in a Jewish home Id say its more of a yiddish accent. Jews and Italians combined to make the New York (city) accent, so it makes sense. He was probably raised in a Jewish neighborhood and went to Hebrew schools so I cant imagine him talking like your average Philly resident today.

[Dr. Hugo Gansamacher]

He was raised in a Jewish home Id say its more of a yiddish accent. Jews and Italians combined to make the New York (city) accent, so it makes sense. He was probably raised in a Jewish neighborhood and went to Hebrew schools so I cant imagine him talking like your average Philly resident today.

It's not a Yiddish accent. The Yiddish influence in New York speech is more a matter of idiom and inflection than of accent. We (Americans who grew up in non-Yiddish-speaking homes) tend to conflate the two accents because when we hear Yiddish, it is usually spoken by someone with a New York accent. But the Yiddish of the Old Country has very little in common with New York pronunciation. (The accents of New York city were already distinctive before the big influx of Jewish and Italian immigrants in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.)

On the other hand, perhaps Larry's parents grew up in New York? That could have been an influence.

[garystooge]

IMHO, Larry has no good reason to sound like a typical New Yawkah.....and doesn't sound like one at all.
Gary

[Dr. Hugo Gansamacher]

IMHO, Larry has no good reason to sound like a typical New Yawkah.....and doesn't sound like one at all.
Gary

I don't know about "typical": I think that only a minority of New Yorkers of today have a strong local accent. So a "typical New Yorker" of today probably sounds nothing like the Howard brothers, say. (For comparison, I live in Boston, and I would guess that no more than one person in five that I hear has an identifiable "Boston accent.") Do you mean that Larry's accent does not sound like any New York accent at all? That is possible: I have never lived in New York and my ears may not be sharp enough to detect the difference. But his accent sounds even less like any Philadelphia accent that I know of. Have you lived in either city?

[JazzBill]

But his accent sounds even less like any Philadelphia accent that I know of. Have you lived in either city?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                               I'm guessing you don't know who Gary is. Look up "Stoogeum".

[Dr. Hugo Gansamacher]

I'm guessing you don't know who Gary is. Look up "Stoogeum".

Well, then, he should be able to tell me if Larry sounds Philadelphian.

[JazzBill]

Out of the Stooges I always thought Curly had the most noticeable accent.

[Liz]

I did a project on this for my Linguistics class (not solely on this.  It was on all the Stooges and on Laurel & Hardy) which I just presented yesterday.  My partner/good friend and I were researching the dialectology of the Stooges and of Laurel & Hardy.   We confirmed that Larry had an accent because he is from relatively the same part of the country as were Moe, Curly, and Shemp.

And Bill, are you sure?  Moe's accent is pretty pronounced!

[JazzBill]

I guess its a matter of opinion Liz, to me it seems like Curly had a more distinct accent. I do agree with your area of the country concept though. I can usually spot if a person is from the midwest or the east coast or south etc. But it's hard to pick out the exact city.

[Dr. Hugo Gansamacher]

Out of the Stooges I always thought Curly had the most noticeable accent.

I did a project on this for my Linguistics class (not solely on this.  It was on all the Stooges and on Laurel & Hardy) which I just presented yesterday.  My partner/good friend and I were researching the dialectology of the Stooges and of Laurel & Hardy.   We confirmed that Larry had an accent because he is from relatively the same part of the country as were Moe, Curly, and Shemp.

And Bill, are you sure?  Moe's accent is pretty pronounced!

Both of them like to "moider" the King's English, as Curly accuses Moe of doing in Higher Than a Kite. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. 

"We confirmed that Larry had an accent": there's nothing to confirm; everybody has an accent. The only difference is in how much one person's accent differs from someone else's.

I guess its a matter of opinion Liz, to me it seems like Curly had a more distinct accent. I do agree with your area of the country concept though. I can usually spot if a person is from the midwest or the east coast or south etc. But it's hard to pick out the exact city.

Of course, that is just the present question---picking out the exact city. My sources say that deletion of /r/ after vowels is not part of Philadelphia speech, but Larry, like the Howards, very often drops /r/ after vowels. This is what makes him sound "Noo Yawk" to me. So did he acquire a New York accent, or are my sources concerning Philadelphia accents mistaken?

[garystooge]

So did he acquire a New York accent, or are my sources concerning Philadelphia accents mistaken?
 
 

Given these 2 options, I' d choose "b"....your source  regarding Philadelphia accents is mistaken.
My feeling is that there is no textbook definition of a standard Philadelphia accent. I've only noticed a few words and phrases that are a definite tip-off that someone is from Philly:
1.referring to more than one person as "yuz" as in "yuz guys" (I think this is the equivalent of M-J's Pittsburghian "yinz"
2.asking for a glass of "wooder" (water)
3.ordering a hoagie (known as subs, grinders, etc elsewhere)
4.rooting for the "Iggles" (Eagles)
5.trying to get someone's attention by yelling "Yo"

I think Bill was right when he said that the accent is more of a regional thing. If you can tell the difference between someone from Philly, Wilmington or South Jersey then you've got amazing ears.

Also, someone growing up in Rocky Balboa's South Philly neighborhood wouldn't sound anything like someone who grew up and trained at Joe Frazier's gym in North Philly.

And I still maintain that Larry does not have a New York accent, even though your ears clearly detect one.  After talking Stooges for many years with many people, I don't recall anyone ever making this assertion or asking why. To me that means the average person does not hear what you do.

Being familiar with the voices of Larry's brother and sister, I'd say he sounds more like a Feinberg than a Philadelphian or New Yorker.
Gary

[metaldams]

2.asking for a glass of "wooder" (water)

I'm originally from Connecticut, and live 45 minutes away from Philly.  My brother's girlfriend when he was in high school always used to say "Wooder," and we constantly teased her about it.

Another thing I notice, and maybe we're strange in Connecticut, but what people in this area call "viewings," we'd call "wakes" in Connecticut.

[Lefty]

I was bahn in Philadelphia and other than saying "Yo," I don't sound like the typical Fluffyan.  Howevuh, at the dinah I ahdud gahlic bread aftuh I pahked my cah just ahf Roosevelt Boulevahd, because at foist I didn't have fawty dollahs at Toidy-Toid and Toid Avenyuh.  But Ah do declayer, y'all sho talk lahk y'all wanna oh-er-der chee-uh-kun tanders and Fray-anch Frahz. But it sure is coald oot, eh?

[Dr. Hugo Gansamacher]

Lefty's message appeared while I was composing this one. Lefty, are you saying that [r]-dropping is a feature of some Philadelphian accents? If so, then that would explain one of the chief features of Larry's accent that I perceive as New York-ish. By the way, I am surprised that you would represent a "Fluffyan" pronunciation of "born," "ordered," and "off" as "bahn," "ahded," and "ahf," rather than "bawn," "awded," and "awf": that looks more like a representation of Boston pronunciation to me. Of course, trying to use conventional characters to represent details like these is always treacherous.

Being familiar with the voices of Larry's brother and sister, I'd say he sounds more like a Feinberg than a Philadelphian or New Yorker.
Gary

This just deepens the puzzle. If the Feinbergs all grew up in Philadelphia, what on earth can it mean to say that Larry "sounds more like a Feinberg than a Philadelphian or New Yorker"? Larry clearly has some sort of regional Northeastern accent. If it is not a Philadelphia accent, then what is it, and how did he come to have it?

Perhaps the issues will become clearer if we look at a specific example. Below is a YouTube video of the first half of He Cooked His Goose. (Sorry that the sound is out of synch.) Listen to how he pronounces words that, in non-regional American accents, have post-vocalic [r] in them:

(1) At 0:59, Larry says, "In person, Milly, my little dilly! And I brought you some flowers." The vowel, or rather diphthong, that he has in the first syllable of the word "person" is plainly non-rhotic: in terms of articulatory phonetics, it is a rising diphthong that moves from a central starting point to a high frontal end point, or in phonetic notation, [ɜɪ]. This is a diphthong characteristic of working-class New York City accents and also of some Southern accents (notably some New Orleans accents). I do not know of any other regional American accents in which it occurs. In particular, I have not known it to occur in any accent native to the region of southern New Jersey, Philadelphia, and thereabouts—but if I am mistaken on that point, please let me know. Larry's pronunciation of the word "person" here sounds like something from out of the mouth of a working-class New Yorker. If you want an example of the diphthong from native New Yorkers, listen to how Chico and Groucho pronounce the word "rehearsing" in this clip from Animal Crackers starting at 6:30. Does such a diphthong occur in Philadelphia accents?

(2) The word "flowers" has no [r] in it: in phonetic notation, it is [flaʊəz] rather than the rhotic [flaʊɚz] (or [flaʊərz]—the choice of notation is largely a matter of convenience). Again, this sounds like New York (to me, anyway).

(3) At 1:15, he says, "Hey, Milly, how 'bout havin' dinner with me tonight?" "Dinner" is [dɪnə], with no final [r].

(4) At 1:24, he says, "You're a sucker, Milly!" He pronounces "sucker" as [sʌkə], with no final [r].

(5) A few seconds after that, he says, "Nevertheless, it's a fact! You're too good for that chiseler." pronounces "nevertheless" as [ˈnɛvəðəlˌɛs], with no [r]; "you're" as [jʊə], with no [r]; and "chiseler" as [ˈtʃɪzlə], again with no [r].

And so on. Is this sort of thing found in Philadelphia accents? I ask especially about detail no. 1.

[youtube=425,350]FR2cPRvWXsA[/youtube]

[garystooge]

I dunno Doc, I don't think you're ever going to get the answers you're looking for.   If Larry does indeed have a New York or non-Philadelphia accent, we could only speculate as to why. BTW it seems that you're primarily hanging your hat on the Wikipedia article which seemingly states that no Philadelphians drop their r's.  I don't know about you, but if I went into battle with Wikipedia as my only artillery I'd feel rather unarmed.  In fact, if you look at their discussion thread instead of the primary listing, you'll see that there is complete disagreement over what constitutes the "Philly Sound'.

[Dr. Hugo Gansamacher]

I dunno Doc, I don't think you're ever going to get the answers you're looking for.   If Larry does indeed have a New York or non-Philadelphia accent, we could only speculate as to why. BTW it seems that you're primarily hanging your hat on the Wikipedia article which seemingly states that no Philadelphians drop their r's.  I don't know about you, but if I went into battle with Wikipedia as my only artillery I'd feel rather unarmed.  In fact, if you look at their discussion thread instead of the primary listing, you'll see that there is complete disagreement over what constitutes the "Philly Sound'.

I take your point, but I used the Wikipedia article simply because it is convenient. I have studied dialectology a fair bit, using those old paper things that you find on shelves . . . what do you call them . . . books! Yes, I have read books about American accent regions, and all the ones that I remember place Philadelphia in a rhotic (non-"r"-dropping) region. Now, it is possible that these sources have all been in error, or that I am misremembering what I have read, but it would be very surprising to me and would require explanation in its own right. That is why I have been trying to get information from people who might have first-hand knowledge of the matter. So far, Lefty has been the only one able to offer that, though his reply was somewhat, shall we say, indirect. 

[garystooge]

I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about dialectology.  I can tell that you're way more well-versed in that area than I am. If you're familiar with the rock group, Rush, a lot of people think their lead singer, Geddy Lee, sounds like a woman.  If you mention that to a Rush fan, they couldn't possibly be surprised...they surely have heard that over the years. But as I mentioned in another post, in over 30 years of hardcore Stooging, I've never heard anyone insist or even intimate that Larry had a New York accent.  I don't recall anyone in this thread agreeing that he had one either.  Therefore I'll continue to maintain that he doesn't have one.  And whatever accent Larry does have (be it New York, Philly or whatever), how would we today be able to conclusively prove its origin?

[Dr. Hugo Gansamacher]

But as I mentioned in another post, in over 30 years of hardcore Stooging, I've never heard anyone insist or even intimate that Larry had a New York accent.  I don't recall anyone in this thread agreeing that he had one either.  Therefore I'll continue to maintain that he doesn't have one.  And whatever accent Larry does have (be it New York, Philly or whatever), how would we today be able to conclusively prove its origin?

I don't insist that it is a New York accent: I do insist that there is a puzzle about how it could be a Philadelphia accent. I have identified specific features that his pronunciation shares with a New York accent, and I have asked: are these features found in any Philadelphia accents? If they are, then the problem is solved: his accent is a Philadelphia accent (if perhaps one that is no longer common), and my understanding of the differences between Philadelphia and New York accents has been mistaken. But so far, no one has supplied me with any definite information on that point.

To answer your rhetorical question: You determine the origin of an accent by finding the place in which people have that accent. (If someone from New York adopts a southern-Californian accent, say, then the origin of the accent lies in southern California, even if the origin of the person does not.) In the present case, we have the handicap that we are dealing with someone who grew up more than a hundred years ago, and the prevalent accents of locales have changed a lot since then: local features like "r" dropping have been giving way to non-regional ones. But the fact is that such features survive at least among a minority of speakers, notably among older ones, in every locale. So if Larry Fine's accent was a typical Philadelphia accent a hundred years ago, then its distinguishing features would still be found in the speech of some natives of the city, if only elderly ones.