Moronika
Film & Shorts Discussions => The Three Stooges - Curly Years => Topic started by: metaldams on May 04, 2013, 12:17:45 PM
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http://www.threestooges.net/filmography/episode/2
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0025688/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
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Thanks to those who participated for WOMAN HATERS, let's hope this keeps up. Of course, you can still talk WOMAN HATERS as well.
PUNCH DRUNKS makes me wonder why the boys did not write more of their shorts, because this seems like a fully realized creation, and we're only at the second short. Perhaps they had to write a short at this point because nobody else would, but whatever the case, the results are brilliant.
PUNCH DRUNKS is the short where The Three Stooges are born. Moe is the boss who slaps everyone around, Larry the middle man, and Curly assumes the mantle of the third Stooge. In WOMAN HATERS and with Healy they were a bit interchangeable, but from this point forward, they had defined characters. Since this short defined the Stooges, one can argue it's their most important one. Even though they were never officially credited with writing another one of their shorts again, PUNCH DRUNKS proves they were the authors of their own characters and not a studio creation.
A fun short all the way around, importance aside. I love some of the throwaway gags like Curly placing his stuff out he window when going to work, Larry's two piece hat, Curly giving an apple to the ref, and Moe chomping on broccoli like a typewriter.
9/10
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Well, I just finished watching Punch Drunks a few minutes ago & my feelings about it haven't changed much. I still think it's one of the more overrated shorts in the stooge library. I'm not saying it's bad by any means, I just think it's good not great.
As I've said before in the comments section, I think if this same script had been done a few years later when Moe, Larry and Curly had perfected their onscreen personas it would have been a classic. In a way, I think Grips, Grunts and Groans kind of proves my theory.
At any rate, I would say "Drunks" is a solid 7 on the 10 scale, but their was much better to come from the stooges.
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PUNCH DRUNKS makes me wonder why the boys did not write more of their shorts, because this seems like a fully realized creation, and we're only at the second short. Perhaps they had to write a short at this point because nobody else would, but whatever the case, the results are brilliant.
In Larry Fine's words:
"We helped to write all the shorts -- however, on account of the Writers Guild, we had to take our names off the credits after Punch Drunks."
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PUNCH DRUNKS is the short where The Three Stooges are born. Moe is the boss who slaps everyone around, Larry the middle man, and Curly assumes the mantle of the third Stooge. In WOMAN HATERS and with Healy they were a bit interchangeable, but from this point forward, they had defined characters. Since this short defined the Stooges, one can argue it's their most important one. Even though they were never officially credited with writing another one of their shorts again, PUNCH DRUNKS proves they were the authors of their own characters and not a studio creation.
That basically sums up what I was going to say. It's an appropriate "first" short, as the storyline unites the team for the first time ("From now on we're a corporation!"), and also considering that the Stooges came up with the story themselves, as you pointed out.
All three Stooges were in excellent form throughout the short. My favorite bits:
- Curly flipping out when he hears "Pop Goes the Weasel", of course.
- Curly rowing the cart while towing Moe and Larry in a wagon ("I lost my bal-lance!")
- "I'm in a terrible dilemma." "Yeah, I don't care much for these foreign cars either."
- Larry running down the street repeatedly, searching for new sources of "Pop Goes the Weasel" to play for Curly after his violin gets broken.
I more inclined to use the adjective "great" for this short than Shemp_Diesel is, but I agree that they did even better shorts later on. I give Punch Drunks 8 out of 10 eye pokes.
(...) like Curly placing his stuff out (t)he window when going to work, (...)
FWIW, I think that's a display window that is curtained off, rather than a regular open window.
In Larry Fine's words:
"We helped to write all the shorts -- however, on account of the Writers Guild, we had to take our names off the credits after Punch Drunks."
I didn't know that, although I always assumed that they had input in developing their characters and worked with the writing staff to some extent.
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In Larry Fine's words:
"We helped to write all the shorts -- however, on account of the Writers Guild, we had to take our names off the credits after Punch Drunks."
Where or when did Larry say this quote? I probably heard or read it somewhere and forgot, but I'd love to know the source.
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Well, I just finished watching Punch Drunks a few minutes ago & my feelings about it haven't changed much. I still think it's one of the more overrated shorts in the stooge library. I'm not saying it's bad by any means, I just think it's good not great.
As I've said before in the comments section, I think if this same script had been done a few years later when Moe, Larry and Curly had perfected their onscreen personas it would have been a classic. In a way, I think Grips, Grunts and Groans kind of proves my theory.
At any rate, I would say "Drunks" is a solid 7 on the 10 scale, but their was much better to come from the stooges.
I have the opposite feeling in that I feel "Grips, Grunts, and Groans," while not a bad short, is an inferior version of "Punch Drunks." I think "Punch Drunks" does a better job at incorporating all three characters into the mix while "Grips" is a bit mor Curly centric....not that that's a bad thing in its own right.
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Where or when did Larry say this quote? I probably heard or read it somewhere and forgot, but I'd love to know the source.
Give me a day or two and I'll post the audio clip. It's from a 1973 Q&A session between Larry and my dad. I wrote the questions, my dad dropped in on Larry and asked the questions, and Larry's responses were recorded on audio tape. Obviously, this was prior to the slew of Stooges books and prior to the internet. So my questions were simple and naive. As you can imagine, getting Larry's answers on tape in 1973 was a revelation!
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Give me a day or two and I'll post the audio clip. It's from a 1973 Q&A session between Larry and my dad. I wrote the questions, my dad dropped in on Larry and asked the questions, and Larry's responses were recorded on audio tape. Obviously, this was prior to the slew of Stooges books and prior to the internet. So my questions were simple and naive. As you can imagine, getting Larry's answers on tape in 1973 was a revelation!
Thank you! Looking forward to it whenever you get the chance.
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I agree with most of you, this is the short that helped define their roles. I like the scene when after being pushed in the water, it takes Moe and Curly a couple minutes to find Larry on his head in the water. After he gets pulled out of the water Larry pulls that fish out his jacket. I swear that looks like a real fish and not one of them cheap props they used most of the time. Columbia did a remake of this in 1945 in a Shemp solo short called "A Hit With A Miss". Shemp was doing the Curly role, they even used some of the footage from the Stooge short in it. Punch Drunks is very high on my list of favorites. 10 pokes
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I wonder if anyone else has noticed that the song " Let's Fall in Love ", which Larry keeps playing on the violin, is so durable that they use it again 23 years later in Sweet And Hot. Same song in the almost-the-first short and the almost-the-last short. And speaking of this and unions, my guess would be that even though everybody knows that Larry was a good violinist, that's probably not him on the soundtrack. Wrong union.
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I'd like to chime in on this one. Punch Drunks, while not in my top ten favorites was always an instant pleaser when it would pop up on tv when my siblings and I would be watching the Stooges, early Sunday mornings. It was just a fun short to watch. I always enjoyed the second half of this short (when the boxing match starts) more so than the beginning.
My favorite bits:
- Larry blazing down the street at super speed
- The cat and mouse game between the kid with the jawbreakers and the bellman.
- The "look" Larry gives when he sits down ringside, relaxing and ready to play his violin. Absolutely hilarious! Possibly the single funniest facial expression given by Larry FIne in any stooge short!
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I wonder if anyone else has noticed that the song " Let's Fall in Love ", which Larry keeps playing on the violin, is so durable that they use it again 23 years later in Sweet And Hot. Same song in the almost-the-first short and the almost-the-last short. And speaking of this and unions, my guess would be that even though everybody knows that Larry was a good violinist, that's probably not him on the soundtrack. Wrong union.
Believe it or not, when I watched the PUNCH DRUNKS yesterday, I did notice Larry was playing "Let's Fall in Love" from SWEET AND HOT. Never caught it before that, and I've seen the short dozens of times.
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Give me a day or two and I'll post the audio clip. It's from a 1973 Q&A session between Larry and my dad. I wrote the questions, my dad dropped in on Larry and asked the questions, and Larry's responses were recorded on audio tape. Obviously, this was prior to the slew of Stooges books and prior to the internet. So my questions were simple and naive. As you can imagine, getting Larry's answers on tape in 1973 was a revelation!
That's awesome! I look forward to hearing it when you can get it posted. :D
How old were you when you came up with the questions, and how did you get your Dad to go interview Larry?
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That's awesome! I look forward to hearing it when you can get it posted. :D
How old were you when you came up with the questions, and how did you get your Dad to go interview Larry?
Here 'tis -- the question and Larry Fine's answer -- short and sweet. I was 16 at the time (April 1973), and my dad saw Larry while on a business trip to LA. Details of how I got my dad to visit Larry are documented in Stooges Among Us (my chapter on pages 111-147). But the bottom line is that I asked my dad if he'd visit Larry and he said he'd try. A great dad then and still a great dad at age 91!
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Here 'tis -- the question and Larry Fine's answer -- short and sweet. I was 16 at the time (April 1973), and my dad saw Larry while on a business trip to LA. Details of how I got my dad to visit Larry are documented in Stooges Among Us (my chapter on pages 111-147). But the bottom line is that I asked my dad if he'd visit Larry and he said he'd try. A great dad then and still a great dad at age 91!
That is so cool that your Dad would do that for you; I can't imagine mine being willing to do that. Thanks for sharing the audio clip!
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That is so cool that your Dad would do that for you; I can't imagine mine being willing to do that. Thanks for sharing the audio clip!
My pleasure -- you're certainly welcome!
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As mentioned, this is the short in which the Stooges' personalities really take shape. It's also the only short that gives them a writing credit.
Originally called 'A Symphony Of Punches,' Larry was meant to play 'Stars And Stripes Forever,' but Columbia used 'Pop Goes The Weasel' because it was in the public domanin and they wouldn't have to pay any rights for it.
Also, Moe was 'Bangs,' Larry was 'Fuzzy,' and Curly was...well, Curley!
Always loved this one, especially seeing Curly go nuts over 'Pop Goes The Weasel.'
Other favorite moments include: 'I lost my ba-lance' - The guys horsing around in the background during the fight - Curly's glove swelling to the size of a watermelon - Larry driving through the wall of the building.
Also, pay attention to the very end, just before Curly knocks out Moe and Larry. All of a sudden, everybody except the Stooges are lying on the floor of the ring (reminds me of the ending to 'Grips, Grunts And Groans)!
My Rating: 8/10 (Skip the colorized version though...)
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Here 'tis -- the question and Larry Fine's answer -- short and sweet. I was 16 at the time (April 1973), and my dad saw Larry while on a business trip to LA. Details of how I got my dad to visit Larry are documented in Stooges Among Us (my chapter on pages 111-147). But the bottom line is that I asked my dad if he'd visit Larry and he said he'd try. A great dad then and still a great dad at age 91!
Awesome little trip back in time there! So clear and Porcupine sounds more like himself than in some other interviews. Please post more! Or send me an audio file.. I'd love to hear the whole tape!
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I wonder if anyone else has noticed that the song " Let's Fall in Love ", which Larry keeps playing on the violin, is so durable that they use it again 23 years later in Sweet And Hot. Same song in the almost-the-first short and the almost-the-last short.
That song is played not only at the beginning and end of The Stooges' Columbia shorts career, as you noted, but also once right in the middle: in RHYTHM AND WEEP (1946) on piano by Jack Norton (at 6 minutes into the short, after Curly falls off the roof).
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Isn't this the first Three Stooges short to trot out the "tapeworm" gag?
And as metaladams said in the first post, to me, this is the first Three Stooges short, not Women Haters! ;D
For duty and humanity,
JohnH aka QuinceHead
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Here 'tis -- the question and Larry Fine's answer -- short and sweet. I was 16 at the time (April 1973), and my dad saw Larry while on a business trip to LA. Details of how I got my dad to visit Larry are documented in Stooges Among Us (my chapter on pages 111-147). But the bottom line is that I asked my dad if he'd visit Larry and he said he'd try. A great dad then and still a great dad at age 91!
Thanks for posting this, much appreciated!
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Thanks for posting this, much appreciated!
Glad to do it!
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Regarding writing credits on PUNCH DRUNKS:
The story was filmed before. The Stooges short is a "partial/unofficial" remake of the 1928 Al Christie/Paramount silent comedy short LAY ON, MACDUFF. Whether or not the credited writers Howard, Fine and Howard and Jack Cluett on PUNCH DRUNKS ever saw that earlier short we'll probably never know, but the story and situations are very similar to PUNCH DRUNKS. The silent short was part of the "Sandy MacDuff" series starring Jack Duffy playing a Scotchman. In this version it is bagpipe music that makes him go nuts (which works well visually, since this is a silent film). The writer credited on this short is Sig Herzig.
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The same basic plot would be used in the Patsy Kelly film KELLY THE SECOND, with Guinn "Big Boy" Williams getting fighting mad whenever he hears "The Irish Washer Woman".
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/241916/Kelly-The-Second-Feature-Film-.html
And of course Laurel & Hardy put their spin on the gag with Ollie's "hornomania" in SAPS AT SEA.
Chris
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The same basic plot would be used in the Patsy Kelly film KELLY THE SECOND, with Guinn "Big Boy" Williams getting fighting mad whenever he hears "The Irish Washer Woman".
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/241916/Kelly-The-Second-Feature-Film-.html
And of course Laurel & Hardy put their spin on the gag with Ollie's "hornomania" in SAPS AT SEA.
Chris
And of course, also the idea of Curly going nuts when he sees a mouse (HORSES' COLLARS), smelling Wild Hyacinth perfume (GRIPS, GRUNTS AND GROANS) and when he sees a tassel (TASSELS IN THE AIR) are more variations on the theme.
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Can we all agree that Arthur Houseman is, as usual, great in this? And without the drunk act, and without saying a word, unless you count "Nyaaaahhhh" as a word. What a face.
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Can we all agree that Arthur Houseman is, as usual, great in this? And without the drunk act, and without saying a word, unless you count "Nyaaaahhhh" as a word. What a face.
Yes he is, and it's a shame he did not appear with The Stooges more. This also may be a rare occasion where he plays a sober character, good point.
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Yes he is, and it's a shame he did not appear with The Stooges more. This also may be a rare occasion where he plays a sober character, good point.
He (Arthur Housman) was actually quite good at playing gangsters, speakesy owners, etc.
And I agree it's our loss that he didn't work more with The Stooges. But we do have all those great Laurel & Hardy & Housman films, and he worked especially well with the team of Thelma Todd & Patsy Kelly (Roach shorts BABES IN THE GOODS, DONE IN OIL and TREASURE BLUES are recommended for Housman fans).
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There probably aren't many Stooge fans who don't enjoy PUNCH DRUNKS. It's one of the classics. The location filming on Larchmont is plus for me. I always enjoy location shooting in these old shorts and it's regrettable the practice didn't last long with the Stooges.
It's too bad we didn't see more of Dorothy Granger, a long-time supporting actress for various comedians. She only appeared in one other Stooges short, TERMITES OF 1938. She did appear in three of DeRita's four Columbia solo shorts.
I echo the sentiments on Housman.
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It's too bad we didn't see more of Dorothy Granger, a long-time supporting actress for various comedians. She only appeared in one other Stooges short, TERMITES OF 1938. She did appear in three of DeRita's four Columbia solo shorts.
She was rather fortunate it wasn't a Newfoundland dog that bit her.
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He (Arthur Housman) was actually quite good at playing gangsters, speakesy owners, etc.
And I agree it's our loss that he didn't work more with The Stooges. But we do have all those great Laurel & Hardy & Housman films, and he worked especially well with the team of Thelma Todd & Patsy Kelly (Roach shorts BABES IN THE GOODS, DONE IN OIL and TREASURE BLUES are recommended for Housman fans).
Housman was great at Hal Roach, I agree.
He also played a good role in SUNRISE, one of the great silent dramas, of all films!
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Is there anyone that prefers the remake, the 1945 Shemp Columbia solo A HIT WITH A MISS?
The solo Shemp offering is a worthy contender, but I have to side with the original in this case.
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I like the scene when after being pushed in the water, it takes Moe and Curly a couple minutes to find Larry on his head in the water. After he gets pulled out of the water Larry pulls that fish out his jacket. I swear that looks like a real fish and not one of them cheap props they used most of the time.
Definitely a memorable scene. Memorable to Larry Fine, too, who chronicled it in Stroke of Luck, p. 259-260. In Larry's words:
"While making the film short Punch Drunks, there was a scene where Moe and I were standing alongside of a waterfront, and I was playing the violin, while waiting for Curly's train to arrive. While playing, Moe and I have an argument and he grabs the violin from me and throws it in the water. At the spot where Moe is to throw the violin, they had dug out a deeper hole under the water, and that spot became very soft and muddy. As I jump in the water, face down, to retrieve my violin, I sink in the soft muddy spot all the way up to my elbows. The director hollers, "Cut! Okay Larry, get out of the water." I couldn't, as I was stuck, sinking in deeper and drowning; they pulled me out half drowned! As if this wasn't enough, the director gets the idea to repeat the same scene, but now they raise my head out of the water; they wanted me to emerge with a live frog on top of my head. They plant a large frog on my head, and as I lift my head out of the water, the frog is slipping off, and it would dig deeper into my scalp in order not to fall off, thereby scratching hell out of the top of my head and I bled profusely. Ironically, after going through these two hectic scenes, they decide to cut them out of the film!!"
Based on Larry's description of the frog incident, is there any doubt that the fish in the final version of the film was real?
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One of my favorite stooge shorts....though one thing always bothered me....how did Larry know that "Pop Goes The Weasel" drove Curly nuts? The implication in the short is that none of the Stooges actually knew each other beforehand.
Just wonderin'....
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One of my favorite stooge shorts....though one thing always bothered me....how did Larry know that "Pop Goes The Weasel" drove Curly nuts? The implication in the short is that none of the Stooges actually knew each other beforehand.
Just wonderin'....
I always made the assumption Larry just thought it fit the occasion of Curly being slapped around and by coincidence Curly goes mad.
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how did Larry know that "Pop Goes The Weasel" drove Curly nuts?
I always made the assumption Larry just thought it fit the occasion of Curly being slapped around and by coincidence Curly goes mad.
That's always been my take on it, too. Larry plays a livelier tune than he was originally playing because of what was going on, and it just happens to be the one that sends Curly into berserker mode. ;)
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Not much more to say. Great posts. This is definitely in my top 10% of episodes.... Running down Larchmont ... Lost my ba-lance, excellent
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There are so many great things that I love about this short. Many of you have mentioned the great bits. My favorite bit is the interaction between the Gumball Kid (Harry Watson) and the timekeeper (Houseman). The plot is hilarious. I love any short where Curly goes berserk because of something random like "Pop Goes the Weasel".
The beginning of the second scene with Curly sweating while rowing, the view moving to Moe barking out orders, then to Larry playing a dramatic tune on the violin is just hilarious. I love the contrast between the nicely dressed violinist and the sweaty, "musclebound" boxer ("Ohh, you're in great shape, K.O.") and the violin music versus Moe's barking. "I lost my ba-LANCE." is one of my favorite Stooge quotes. I have actually used it several times myself, then my wife gives me the works. I doubt I'll ever have an opportunity to use "Give K.O. a couple a bars of 'Weasel'", another one of my favorites. That is such a bizarre, funny sentence.
Larry running up and down the street with his hair going everywhere, and Curly talking to his mother through the spit funnel thingy just makes me laugh every time I see it. I just don't find anything weak in this short. It is solid and in my top 5. 10 pokes.
Moe chewing on the broccoli? I thought that was just a sponge.
The restaurant manager (Chuck Callahan) giving Curly the works is excellent. I can't recall anyone other than Moe getting to slap him around that much in a scene. Callahan is great in that role.
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Moe chewing on the broccoli? I thought that was just a sponge.
You know, I always thought broccoli, which is a really funny idea, but I guess in the setting of a boxing match a sponge makes more sense. Next time I watch PUNCH DRUNKS I'll pay extra special attention to that part.
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A classic that I feel should have been the first Three Stooges short. I have been off the boards for several months now, but I would have also summed up Dunrobin's observation: "From now on we're a corporation." It's such an iconic line to this Stooges fan. So many gags originated in this film. So many little things crack me up in this short, one little bit is when Larry is trying to impress the lady in the car, he brushes his hair a little before playing his violin. Such a funny short.
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This short is a classic too. That Pop Goes the Weasel that Larry plays sure is catchy!
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Beats most other Stooge shorts as far as having a plot, and almost certainly beats all of them as far as having suspense.
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Incredible short. All has been said! 10/10
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This is a good episode... in fact, it's very good that it masks Curly's undeveloped character. Notice he uses his real voice in this episode and doesn't utter a single "nyuk." But he still carries on well and the story is very good. This is one of several episodes where Curly goes wild over something. Funny how they never did it with Shemp; only in his solo films. Larry gets a good amount of screen time and this is one episode where he really shows his musical talent with the violin.
Curly goes wild over the Pop Goes the Weasel tune and wins several boxing matches because of it. But then Curly accidentally breaks the violin and Larry goes crazy finding some kind of radio that plays the tune. He finds a truck playing the tune, steals the truck and crashes into the boxing match. Then Curly goes really wild and knocks everyone out, including Moe and Larry. What chaos!!
For a second episode, this is very good.
9.5/10
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Yup - more Brandenburg stuff; I know Chet is one of Kilduff's corner men, but is Ed Brandenburg the fella Larry knocks down in the street when he runs to the match with the radio?
Also, how positively attractive and fantastic is Dorothy Granger? Not just in this short, but in general! And yes, this is a fantastic short - one of my early favorites.
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One of my all-time favorites and the first Stooge classic. "Punch Drunks" delivers a comic knockout, with the team's immortal characterizations firmly in place. It makes "Woman Haters" look like a glorified audition film. Nice to see Arthur Housman sober for a change.
In 2002, "Punch Drunks" was selected for preservation in the Library of Congress' National Film Registry — the only Stooge film to receive that distinction. Hopefully, a few more shorts will be considered for future honors.
9/10
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Two shorts in, and the Stooges have arrived! Moe is the surly boss, Larry the genial middleman, and Curly the wacky patsy who inhabits a world of his own.
The plot is perfect for the Stooge Universe: The Boys are misfits at war with a hostile universe, Curly has a strange but exploitable quirk, and only being inept as only the Stooges can will spoil the plan!
Damn, 188 shorts to go and already The Boys have made what might be the best of all of them! [3stooges]
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Watching PUNCH DRUNKS for the first time since a few years prior to my review... it is just an incredible short start to finish. There is so much teamwork, and here because the Stooges are all in their characters more-or-less as they created them it gives a strong chemistry among them. Everything is so much smoother and clearly a bit more... vaudevillian than their other shorts. The slaps and eye pokes clearly have that stage chemistry as opposed to the exaggerated reactions given in years to come. I would say it's a different feeling, but just as good of one as we see in later shorts.
Moe is definitely supposed to be chewing a sponge. Back then, in breaks between rounds, they would use sponges to rub the fighter with cold water to help him cool off.
Chuck Callahan and Arthur Housman both definitely deserve praise for their roles, but for me the highlight is that shot of Larry running down the street at night. It's the perfect climax to this film. Thank God for PUNCH DRUNKS.
I have four more words for this one: F*** the Hollywood unions. They screw up more stuff than they make right.
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My countdown ranking - #89
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Just their second short, and already the classics were starting
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I'm about to repeat something I seem to say often around these here parts, but I have always loved this short. Most of the reasons have already been shared, but I must admit I have never properly said the word balance since I was 8....and it's all Larry's fault.
Another favorite moment was unintended, but always made me loff. When Curly is on the bumper and Larry starts playing weasel, the side flaps on Curly's cap start flapping in the breeze as his KO strength kicks in. It's such a perfect cartoon-like moment.
I also love the B story of Houseman dealing with the kid, especially his 'I just sucked on a lemon' face.
Finally, how frickin' cute is Dorothy Granger in this? I would have gladly offered to help dry her soggy bottom after Moe doused Larry pre-fight...and got Dorothy with some collateral water damage.
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Finally, how frickin' cute is Dorothy Granger in this?
Dude, you read my mind.
In this most recent viewing of Punch Drunks, I was reminded of Dorothy's qualities as a screen actor. She was good, and funny. Lots of screen credits, too — though as often as not, those roles are un-credited ones. She's a little hard to see, and one must seek her movie out. Well worth doing, though.
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Count me in as a Dorothy Granger fan! Besides her other great assets, she also had a great resume. She turns up as late as the 50s in at least one episode of THE ABBOTT AND COSTELLO SHOW, and she still looked great! Va va va VOOM!
When you watch her in Charley Chase's THE PIP FROM PITTSBURG with Thelma Todd, it sets up some good Ginger/Maryanne debates! >:D
She survived until 1995, but I'm surprised that I can't find any video interviews with her.
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When you watch her in Charley Chase's THE PIP FROM PITTSBURG with Thelma Todd, it sets up some good Ginger/Maryanne debates! >:D
Mary Ann from day one! (and that's a lot o'frickin days!)
When I was younger, I might have gone with Thelma for a few years, but the vast majority of the time, it's all Dorothy. It took me a while to appreciate a large heiny.
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Mary Ann from day one! (and that's a lot o'frickin days!)
When I was younger, I might have gone with Thelma for a few years, but the vast majority of the time, it's all Dorothy. It took me a while to appreciate a large heiny.
Early on it was Ginger for me, then it became Mary Anne. It used to be Chrissy for me, then it became Janet. First Farrah, then Jaclyn or Kate, but then Cheryl (when she joined the show) even until now. I think I'm still on the fence about Thelma vs Dorothy, though. Dorothy kind of flew under the radar back then and even now.
Kinda sad, but a lot of actors and actresses become legendary because they die young. Not that they weren't talented, though. Take Kim Novak, for example. She's still with us, but she should be just as legendary and iconic as Marilyn Monroe, but she's not. Back in the 50s and early 60s, I would have chosen Kim over Marilyn.
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Dorothy was definitely nice looking. I think she was about 18 or so when she started at Roach and not that much older here. Margaret Dumont in THE COCOANUTS is age appropriate for me at this point. [pie]. So is talkie era Mae Busch. Twenty years ago, no way I’d notice her more than Thelma or Dorothy, but time’s a strange bird.
Speaking of Dorothy’s heiny, it was her’s Stan was checking out in HOG WILD while distracted driving.
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Dorothy was definitely nice looking. I think she was about 18 or so when she started at Roach and not that much older here. Margaret Dumont in THE COCOANUTS is age appropriate for me at this point. [pie]. So is talkie era Mae Busch. Twenty years ago, no way I’d notice her more than Thelma or Dorothy, but time’s a strange bird.
Speaking of Dorothy’s heiny, it was her’s Stan was checking out in HOG WILD while distracted driving.
Actually, it was her legs. She shows them off in THE DENTIST, too, and boy does W.C. Fields notice.
Dorothy: "My doctor says I have a very bad leg."
Fields: "Your doctor is nuts!"
And it is rather fortunate it wasn't a Newfoundland dog that bit her.
She plays Billy Gilbert's wife (Ethel) in THE CHIMP in a photo, but Martha Sleeper plays the wife when she shows up. Could never figure that one out.
BTW, Dorothy Granger had an 8mm Blackhawk films copy of the L-H MURDER CASE later in her life!
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She plays Billy Gilbert's wife (Ethel) in THE CHIMP in a photo, but Martha Sleeper plays the wife when she shows up. Could never figure that one out.
The Sleeper credit is actually incorrect. It's Dorothy all the way through.
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The Sleeper credit is actually incorrect. It's Dorothy all the way through.
Hmmmm...you may be right. I just had another look at the end of THE CHIMP. It definitely isn't Martha Sleeper. It could be Dorothy Granger -- you do get a good look at her face. I think it's the make-up and hat that makes her look slightly different. I've been watching this film for 50 years -- and early on (in the 70s) I wasn't that familiar with Dorothy other than the name. She does tend to look different in just the span of 2 years from 1930 to 1932. She looks totally different in HOG WILD as opposed to THE DENTIST. Not sure why the L&H "scholars" in their books would perpetrate misinformation though.
The power of suggestion strikes again.
Wikipedia (which is infallible) lists Sleeper in THE CHIMP and not Dorothy. It also says that in 1932 Sleeper was a hit in the PYGMALION stage play. It also says she left Roach Studio in 1927. Dorothy continued in shorts for most of her career. So based on that alone, it is very probable that it is Dorothy in THE CHIMP, and definitely not Sleeper.
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OK, the McCabe/Kilgore/Bann book from 1975 says it's Martha Sleeper in the role, and Dorothy Granger in the picture. Since I got that book when it came out, that makes 50 years (until now) that I thought it was Sleeper in the film.
The L&H Encyclopedia from 1995 says the same thing.
Randy Skretvedt doesn't mention either actress in the first edition of his book for that short. I just read the other day via googling that he spoke to Dorothy Granger a lot -- I'd be curious to see what he has to say. Anyone have later editions of his book?
BTW, sometime this century I remember reading that the McCabe/Kilgore/Bann book was being republished in a deluxe edition with lots more stills. It was quite expensive, so I never "pledged". Not sure if they ever got enough money. The reason I bring it up is because I remember reading that McCabe insisted in his will or something that the text should never be changed, even to correct errors. That is plain stupid -- especially if the new edition perpetuated the lie that Martha Sleeper was in THE CHIMP.
thnx
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OK, the McCabe/Kilgore/Bann book from 1975 says it's Martha Sleeper in the role, and Dorothy Granger in the picture. Since I got that book when it came out, that makes 50 years (until now) that I thought it was Sleeper in the film.
These may help...or add to the confusion. :P
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Sorry...2 more:
The body of the actress is definitely Dorothyish, but the face seems a bit different. Oh well, being 100% sure is kinda boring.
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Sorry...2 more:
The body of the actress is definitely Dorothyish, but the face seems a bit different. Oh well, being 100% sure is kinda boring.
Yea, I was looking at this scene on youtube yesterday, and it just doesn't look enough like Dorothy to me. It doesn't look anything like Martha Sleeper.
I've seen Sleeper in a few Charley Chase shorts, but she never made too much of impression on me that I really remembered her face. So I never paid much attention in THE CHIMP to see if it was her -- until yesterday.
I think Dorothy Granger is gorgeous, and the actress in THE CHIMP isn't gorgeous. Pretty perhaps, but not gorgeous like Dorothy.
Now why would McCabe/Kilgore/Bann say it was Martha Sleeper? Bann was supposed to be the one in charge of filmography details. He's written voluminously on minor production details. I just took a look at The Laurel & Hardy Book on my shelf, edited by Leonard Maltin, and the filmography is by Bann. It says the same thing -- Sleeper playing the role, but pic shown is Dorothy.
Hmmmm...
Why would Bann claim it's not Dorothy, unless he had info we don't? For him to say it was Sleeper, he would have to have info that says it was, because from looking at the film it is not her. (But I don't care what info he has/had -- it is not Martha Sleeper.)
I was trying to figure out if Dorothy was still under contract at Roach when THE CHIMP was filmed. Couldn't find anything definitive, but the incomplete filmographies around the web indicate to me that she didn't appear in any more Roach shorts after 1931, the year she appeared in ONE GOOD TURN.
So let's turn /back the clock to 1932. Why would the Roach studio use a pic of Dorothy and a different actress to play the role? Maybe Dorothy was slated for the role, but then left the studio and they needed an actress that looked like her. Why though? They didn't want to take a portrait of the other actress? Makes no sense.
We need more data.
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more data
1931 and 1932
Unmistakably Dorothy in every pic in the past few posts -- except those from THE CHIMP (but of course the portrait Billy Gilbert holds is also unmistakably Dorothy). I could be wrong. Who knows?
Randy has a "Who's who?" chapter at the end of his book (first edition), and the entry on Dorothy says she appeared in HOG WILD, ONE GOOD TURN, and the L-H MURDER CASE.
Here, Randy comments on this webpage about Dorothy: https://www.catsafterme.com/blog/archives/4430
"She’s best known in L&H circles for her two roles in “Hog Wild” (I think I was the first person she told that she was also the girl navigating the mud puddle) and her appearance in “L-H Murder Case,” ..."
He spoke with her a lot. She mentions HOG WILD and that she was the girl Stan stares at. Curious if he ever asked her about THE CHIMP. You think she would have mentioned something about having her pic in THE CHIMP but not appearing in it. Unless she did appear in it.
Again, she lived until 1995. Authors of film books talked to her. She told Film Fan Monthly (magazine published by a very young Leonard Maltin) that she had an 8mm print of L-H MURDER CASE. She wasn't a recluse who disappeared from the scene. Film Fan Monthly also published her filmography in 1969. I assume she saw it. If it didn't list THE CHIMP, wouldn't she have corrected it? I assume it didn't list it, since Maltin said she wasn't in it in The Laurel & Hardy Book. Did she correct them, and nobody bothered to change it? If she talked to all these authors, it would be safe to assume she read at least the parts of the books pertaining to her. But she never said, "Hey, that was me in THE CHIMP."
Another quote from that website above:
"Dorothy was my father’s first cousin, as their fathers were brothers (hers was Guy and my father’s was Earl). We visted her many times in Santa Monica. Her apartment was filled with movie memorabilia and mink coats! she still loved being a “star.” I am trying to do a Granger geneology and would love hear from Joyce and Bill to see if they have any information. "
She doesn't sound like she was trying to forget about her career. I doubt she would have forgotten being in THE CHIMP.
Perhaps GreenCanaries can give us his source.
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Count me in as a Dorothy Granger fan!
She survived until 1995, but I'm surprised that I can't find any video interviews with her.
Here's a later image of her, possibly taken at a Sons of the Desert meeting.
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Dorothy was definitely nice looking. I think she was about 18 or so when she started at Roach and not that much older here. Margaret Dumont in THE COCOANUTS is age appropriate for me at this point. [pie]. So is talkie era Mae Busch. Twenty years ago, no way I’d notice her more than Thelma or Dorothy, but time’s a strange bird.
Speaking of Dorothy’s heiny, it was her’s Stan was checking out in HOG WILD while distracted driving.
I don't know where this "Karma" feature came from, but I couldn't resist smiting you, Doug. [pie]
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"I'm in a terrible dilemma."
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"I'm in a terrible dilemma."
Moe always expressed regret that he didn't know the difference between a prototype Yugo and a '34 Plymouth. :P
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I don't remember ever spending this much space on this site comparing women's behinds. I'm proud of everyone.
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Getting back to the lovely Miss Granger, this might be her only starring film. Young Onions, a 1932 Educational. https://youtu.be/IOv4FL5PhI0?si=TC5QkFK0N08r0hLR
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Getting back to the lovely Miss Granger, this might be her only starring film. Young Onions, a 1932 Educational. https://youtu.be/IOv4FL5PhI0?si=TC5QkFK0N08r0hLR
Lots of vintage stuff on that person’s channel. Thanks for the link, I subscribed.
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I don't remember ever spending this much space on this site comparing women's behinds. I'm proud of everyone.
Comment of the year. ;D
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OK, the McCabe/Kilgore/Bann book from 1975 says it's Martha Sleeper in the role, and Dorothy Granger in the picture. Since I got that book when it came out, that makes 50 years (until now) that I thought it was Sleeper in the film.
The L&H Encyclopedia from 1995 says the same thing.
Randy Skretvedt doesn't mention either actress in the first edition of his book for that short. I just read the other day via googling that he spoke to Dorothy Granger a lot -- I'd be curious to see what he has to say. Anyone have later editions of his book?
BTW, sometime this century I remember reading that the McCabe/Kilgore/Bann book was being republished in a deluxe edition with lots more stills. It was quite expensive, so I never "pledged". Not sure if they ever got enough money. The reason I bring it up is because I remember reading that McCabe insisted in his will or something that the text should never be changed, even to correct errors. That is plain stupid -- especially if the new edition perpetuated the lie that Martha Sleeper was in THE CHIMP.
thnx
I have the 3rd Edition (A Spring 2019 Paperback "On Demand" Printing!) of LAUREL & HARDY: THE MAGIC BEHIND THE MOVIES, and Dorothy Granger IS indeed, listed within the credits for THE CHIMP (1932).
CHEERS! [pie]
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Getting back to the lovely Miss Granger, this might be her only starring film. Young Onions, a 1932 Educational. https://youtu.be/IOv4FL5PhI0?si=TC5QkFK0N08r0hLR
Was it 'Young Onions' or 'Young Wet Onions'? :o
Sincerely,
I.B. Rhetorical Jr.
P.S. After watching Onions, I do believe that was Miss Dorothy in Das Chimps...both the photo and in person. All the nose shapes are the same.