Moronika
Special Boards => The Master Debates => Topic started by: shemps#1 on May 09, 2009, 09:49:39 PM
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Welcome one and all to the fifth and final (?) installment of The Master Debates.
Topic: If Shemp had never left The Three Stooges would they still be remembered today?
Taking the position that they would be remembered: TMD newcomer stooged and confused
Taking the position that they would not be remembered: the bridesmaid to metaldams' bride, Giff me dat fill-em
Judges:
Dunrobin (the boss man)
metaldams (TMD I and III winner)
xraffle (TMD II winner)
WhyIOughta (TMD IV winner)
Format
The participants have until May 18 to write their arguments. In the interest of fairness I will ask the participants to send their finished arguments to me in a Private Message before posting to this thread. This is so the second participant to finish does not have any advantage from reading the other participant's argument. Once I receive both arguments I will inform the participants that they may post their arguments for the judges to read in this thread.
Once the arguments are posted the participants will then have an opportunity for a rebuttal, or a chance to poke holes in their opponents argument. The rebuttals may be posted immediately to this thread.
Once the rebuttals have been posted and the judges have read and scrutinized everything the judges will be allowed to pose one question (from each judge, not as a group) to each of the participants regarding either their argument or rebuttal.
Once the judges have asked all the questions they needed to and those questions have been answered, the floor will be open to the general public for a period of two days to ask questions of the participants.
Once any and all questions have been answered each judge will cast a vote (in this thread) for who they believe won the debate. If the vote tally is 4-0 or 3-1 a winner will be announced. If the vote tally is 2-2 I will cast the deciding vote.
The winner will receive a one year subscription to the Three Stooges Journal.
Let the debate commence!
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Would the Three Stooges still be remembered if Shemp never left the team? Of course they would.
One only has to look at their body of work to realize that their place in comedy history would be secure.
Shemp was a hit with the Boys and Ted Healy on the stage and when he made those classic shorts with Moe and Larry for Columbia, the answer should be as clear as every bump on Shemp's face.
Considering that many who worked with them site Shemp as being the most naturally funny of the Stooges, only goes to validate what we Stooge fans knew all along.
Author Ron Geraci, in his great article " Which Stooge Are You?" , wrote of Shemp: "Shemp had the ideal Stooge type personality--the lovable Moe. He wasn't a moron like Curly or a slap dummy like Larry. The guy returned eye pokes, seduced women and occasionally told Moe to go service himself in 1940's terms. How could you not love a guy like that?"
The Stooges, with Shemp, were honored with the Laurel Award for top two reelers for several years in a row.
Edward Bernds has said, "I consider the Stooges comedies I did with Shemp as the best of the bunch I did."
And if Stooge director Edward Bernds' comments about Shemp aren't enough for you, just look to the members of this site. There is more anticipation for Volume Six than any of the sets released thus far.
So, the question being: "Would the Three Stooges still be remembered if Shemp never left the team"? You have all answered that already. The teaming of Moe, Larry and Shemp are still remembered, and fondly so.
I sum up the appeal of Shemp like a bottle of fine wine. He just gets better with age.
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Woob-woob-woob-woob!! … Rrruff! Rrruff!! … (that wonderful turkey gobble) … (the horizontal Curly Shuffle)
What would the world be like without these comedic gems? A world of Moe, Larry and Shemp in a less than desirable state of affairs. As far as the premise of this debate is phrased, “If Shemp had never left The Three Stooges would they still be remembered today?” I would be remiss if I said they would not EVER be remembered, (the internet harbors sites that remember anything and everyone) but their memorials would be in a MUCH more minor context than they enjoy today. The reasons for this argument are as follows:
Curly was the attraction, the superstar, the curiosity, the draw, the deliverer of great moments for our boys. And Jules White was quick to make Curly the star, giving him an entire sequence to himself with a beer and an angry clam in the chowder, to site a single instance of Jules’ genius. Would he have designed such a sequence with Shemp (or maybe Larry)? I think not. Moe, Larry and Shemp were a cohesive team that worked very well together, as most of the MLS shorts attest. Their comedy was best served together, and they were marvelous at it. But cohesiveness does not make one particularly memorable. Shemp is my personal favorite Stooge, but Curly was the one who put the Stooges at the top of the comedy charts. Without his input, our boys would have had a successful career, and their comedy would have been timely, but not timeless.
As a “what if”, let’s take the sequence in “Sing a Song of Six Pants” in which Shemp tries to iron the extremely curled up pair of pants. (Jules was no dummy, he tried to recreate the “Curly moments” even without Curly.) This sequence can only exist in our most passionate ‘Curly’ dreams, but one can easily imagine a much more hilarious sequence than was performed (very well, I might add) by Shemp.
This brings me to the nub of my argument – would there be such fervor to make a Three Stooges movie without the influence of Curly? As a died-in-the-wool Shemp fan, I say no way. Without Curly our boys would have been a famous comedy team of the past, and no more. As far as the internet public is concerned, there is no doubt that in a world of only Moe, Larry and Shemp, they would have their dedicated websites and such, but I feel that these sites would get far fewer hits than the current one that includes Curly.
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Just dropping a thought in at this point, that has no bearing on the outcome of this particular debate -- After reading these two debate arguments, one thing immediately becomes clear to me. THESE DEBATES must NOT stop. I really don't care if the same six-to-ten posters are involved in the process at this moment in time -- It may just keep the process alive for future members-to-be to pick up the gauntlet later on...OK, rant over, continue.......
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I've read both arguments and I haven't come to a decision yet. Hopefully, I'll have one once the rebuttals are posted. If not, then I may have questions. ;D
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Here's my rebuttal to Giff:
The question stated for this debate is "If Shemp had never left the act".....so for the purpose of this debate, we must assume there would be no Curly; no N'yuk N'yuk's; no shuffle; no spinning on the floor. If Shemp had never left, we'd have no Curly. With that said, he must be wiped out of our minds for this debate and the work of Moe, Larry and Shemp must stand without comparison.
In my argument, I never mentioned Curly (sans a quote from an author). The fact that my opponent sites Shemp as his favorite does little to support his argument for the other side. This debate must be judged on Shemp's contribution to the Stooges without any comparison to Curly, for he would not be a part of the equation had Shemp never left. His work must be viewed on its own with no comparing "eeps" to "N'yuks".
The shorts would have kept the Boys alive because the prime Shemp years had the same ingredients: fast pacing; cartoon violence; lightning timing; those great sound effects and numerous classic bits: Shemp screaming "My neeeeck" in "Fuelin' Around"; his pantomime with the idol guarding the box with all those hands in "Hula La La"; the slap fest with Christine in "Brideless Groom"; the Shemp shuffle (cop a sneaker, eh) and those faboosh "eep eeps"--JUST TO NAME A FEW.
My opponent says they were "cohesive". They were far more than that. Hey, he even states in his argument that "Shemp is my personal favorite." As Archie Bunker himself would say, "Case closed."
The debate is "If Shemp had never left the act", so Giff's "what if" scenario is a moot point. If he never left the act, there would be no Curly to compare with...you'd never miss him because he wouldn't have been there in the first place. The M/L/S Columbia shorts were funny in their own right, and when they would have been sold to TV in the late 50's, they would have been a hit on their own. Shemp shorts have more than enough laugh out loud moments( and, for the most part, better story structure) and trademarks to remain in the popular culture.
I'll say it once again, how many of you can't wait to get your hands on Volume 6...an ALL SHEMP set?!
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I submit no rebuttal. Any words I might use would all be considered conjecture, since I can find no concrete evidence for my stance, as S&C sites Shemp episodes to support his notions. Soup to Nuts was a flick that was not our boys best effort, and could be labeled forgettable. I can only state that without the fantastic jump to stardom that Curly gave them, our boys would have a difficult time making up for that deficit, and arrive at a point in which their celluloid contributions would be worthy of watching more than once.
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Here are my questions.
S&C: You mentioned that Edward Bernds considers the Stooges comedies he did with Shemp as the best of the bunch that he directed. Keep in mind that Edward Bernds didn’t start working with the stooges until 1945, when Curly’s health was failing. If Bernds started to work with the stooges around 1935, when Curly was in good health, do you think he still would’ve felt that the Shemp shorts he directed were the "best of the bunch?" If yes, then why?
Giff: You mentioned that Moe, Larry and Shemp’s comedy was best served together and they were marvelous at it. But then you say that cohesiveness does not make it particularly memorable. Why not? What exactly did Curly have that Shemp didn’t?
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Good question, X. While it is true that Edward Bernds began working with the Stooges during Curly's decline, there were bright spots ("Three Little Pirates" and "Micro Phonies" comes to mind). But good or bad health, Bernds was familiar with Curly's catalog and STILL considered Shemp to be the most naturally funny of the two. I could easily see Shemp doing the Maha routine (the little bit he jumbled off in "Studio Stoops" is a riot). Truth is, many of the later Curly shorts just weren't as good structurally... "Monkey Businessmen", "Three Loan Wolves", "Uncivil Warbirds" (to name a few) were weaker films regardless of Curly's health. Some of his early efforts suffered due to ill pacing. And Bernds was NOT the only one who has sited Shemp as a standout. Sam White and Phil Silvers said the same thing.
Shemp had a natural chemistry (on his own or with Moe and Larry) and I could see laughing with Shemp in shorts like "Pardon My Scotch", "Pop Goes The Easel" etc. Let's face it...funny is funny and he had the chops to carry those films as well.
Giff mentions that "Soup To Nuts" was forgettable, but I stiil wonder how the Stooges got past 'Woman Haters" to make more shorts as that title was not that well received or considered memorable by most.
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Oh yeah, and Quentin Tarrantino said, "Shemp was just as good at taking his place." So, there you go.
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STOOGE AND CONFUSED: The main question is with Shemp staying in the act the whole time and no Curly involved, would the boys be remembered. To me, this has little to do with artistic credibility because there are other funny comedians of the era people don't remember. From your personal experiences, outside of Three Stooges boards and conventions, what do you gather the general public's perception of Shemp to be?
GIFF: If I think of a question for you, I'll ask later.
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GIFF: If I think of a question for you, I'll ask later.
"Don't Worry, We'll Think Of A Question"
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STOOGE AND CONFUSED: The main question is with Shemp staying in the act the whole time and no Curly involved, would the boys be remembered. To me, this has little to do with artistic credibility because there are other funny comedians of the era people don't remember. From your personal experiences, outside of Three Stooges boards and conventions, what do you gather the general public's perception of Shemp to be?
GIFF: If I think of a question for you, I'll ask later.
I can only quote from my circle of friends who all love Shemp and think he's hilarious and don't laugh any less whether they hear "woo woo woo" or "eep eep eep." His shorts are funny and there are many of them. The fact that the shorts have the same feel, pacing, sound effects, supporting cast would have made them a natural in the late 50's for kids to cling to and take that fondness with them through the years as they grew up. I know quite a few who prefer Shemp over Curly or any of the other 3rd Stooges.
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First post here...(really enjoy this site) My 2 cents are thus: I think the stooges needed someone like Curley to get the ball rolling for them (childlike demeanor, physical style humor and obvious contrast look-wise from Larry & Moe) early on. As soon as their popularity rose, bringing Shemp in after Curley had his stroke is akin to a relay race where the first runner set a really good pace, but the 2nd runner being faster than the first, took them all the way. As correclty stated above, when Screen Gems re-released the shorts in the 50s, more children were drawn in by Curley. All this to say, sadly I don't think they'd be where they are today had it not been for the mass appeal of Curley.
Shemp's funnier tho!
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Here are my questions.
Giff: You mentioned that Moe, Larry and Shemp’s comedy was best served together and they were marvelous at it. But then you say that cohesiveness does not make it particularly memorable. Why not? What exactly did Curly have that Shemp didn’t?
There are cohesive teams that are not particularly memorable - Burns and Carlin, The Limeliters, and Mitchell & Petrillo to name a few. Moe, Larry and Shemp, in order to be writ large in people's memory, need a shtick more than just slap-shtick, more than just "eeps" alone can give.
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Wow! I almost forgot about this debate since it's been three days since someone posted here. Where is everyone? ;D
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I've been kind of busy, myself, but I also have been having trouble coming up with a good question for either side that hasn't already been asked. I'm still somewhat torn on which way to decide - does anyone else have questions for the debaters?
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Yeah, this is a difficult decision to make. But after reading through the arguments, rebuttals and the answers to my questions very carefully, I’ve finally reached a verdict. I will post it once it’s time.
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Sorry guys, I've been dealing with a recurring eye injury the past couple of days and have needed to wear shades to go outdoors at night, much less look at the notebook screen.
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We still need to wait for WhyIOughta's questions before we can proceed.
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Wow, i'm having quite a hard time with this one.....This truly IS a tricky debate, as it asks all of us to go back in time, and consider how things might have developed in the history of the Three Stooges. I'm glad it's not MY debate.... :P
Questions --
Fillem -- Discuss the idea of how much that things would have changed historically with just the original 3 Stooges appearing on film, with no roster changes -- Specifically, their now-perceived "level of rememberance," had only Shemp / Larry / Moe appeared in these shorts / films. (How much DOES that change the team's place in history?)
S & C -- Yep, it looks like it's "Conjecture Day" at the ol' fan web site.......Shemp's extensive solo appearances in film history suggests to me that, had the 3-S stayed as just their original threesome,. they MAY have moved into feature films FAR earlier than they eventually did. Careful, here, my friend, when you answer this question -- If this had in fact occured (the quicker jump OUT of shorts, and into feature-length films), how would this have changed the history of the 3-S as we now know it?
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Wow, i'm having quite a hard time with this one.....This truly IS a tricky debate, as it asks all of us to go back in time, and consider how things might have developed in the history of the Three Stooges. I'm glad it's not MY debate.... :P
Fillem -- Discuss the idea of how much that things would have changed historically with just the original 3 Stooges appearing on film, with no roster changes -- Specifically, their now-perceived "level of rememberance," had only Shemp / Larry / Moe appeared in these shorts / films. (How much DOES that change the team's place in history?)
If I understand your question correctly, I could re-write it as such: ‘How much would have changed historically if it was just Moe, Larry and Shemp, as compared with their current popularity by virtue of the added talents of Curly?’
It’s my feeling that Moe, Larry and Shemp would have never achieved the “level of remembrance” that was Curly’s legacy. It was partly due to the high level of popularity Curly was responsible for that Shemp’s return to the team was as seamless as it was, as far as the public may have viewed the transition. Had he never left, and as such there would be no wonderful Curly-isms and the like, it would have become what we see on the screen now, with, as I mentioned before, Moe, Larry and Shemp as a very good comedy team that worked well together. But there are contemporaries of Moe, Larry and Shemp with those same credentials - and being good together or cohesive may not be enough to lodge the MLS team firmly in the public’s memory. Curly was the rocket ship that thrust the Stooges into high memorableness, and the Stooges with Shemp is the locomotive that does its job day after day, in a reliable and dependable pattern.
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I will answer the last question presented by WIO and then I'll wrap up my debate with a summary of all points/questions asked.
When Shemp was a solo performer, he was usually put in features as a supporting player and/or comic relief. If he had never left the act, as the question for this debate was worded, and the same path in history was to take place where they signed at Columbia, it is doubtful that Harry Cohen would have moved them to features.
Once again, the debate subject is: "If Shemp never left"...my opponent has not succesfully answered this question. As I stated before, for the purpose of this debate, we have to assume that Curly would never enter our minds because he would not have existed. So, the work of M, L and S in the shorts have to be judged on their own. They do hold up and they are fondly remembered. If you never heard a N'yuk before, you never would have missed it. All of the classic bits of the Stooges would remain in only Shemp shorts existing--all of the fast pacing; cartoon violence; more action and less "plot"; great sound effects; all of those Stoogeisms and snappy one liners. If "eeps" only existed along with Shemp's wise cracker character, you'd never miss the high squeaking and bark like a dog mannerisms of Curly. Just because chocolate ice cream was invented doesn't mean vanilla tastes bad. If you only knew from vanilla, you'd NEVER miss chocolate.
To prove my point further, how many film and TV franchises bit the dust when key characters were replaced or simply left? "News Radio" comes to mind--when Phil Hartman was gone and they replaced him with Jon Lovitz, it was never the same. When Ron Howard left "Happy Days," it sank like a stone.
However, when Shemp was re-introduced, they never skipped a beat. They continued their popularity. Even my opponent sites Shemp as his favorite. If we are going down the "compare" road, each 3rd Stooge had their classic and weak films. There are enough classic Shemp shorts to have cemented them in pop culture. If those were the only shorts running 5 days a week after school, then I know we'd still be rushing home to see them, and I did. The Stooges (with or without Curly) were the closest thing we saw that resembled live action cartoons. The 17 minute running times kept you focused and didn't lose steam with romantic sub plots and gooey, dated musical numbers.
So, WIO: I hope it doesn't seem like I'm brushing off your question, but for the purpose of this debate, we have to go with what unfolded (sans Curly). The shorts became their savior. Those numerous in-and- get-out 2 reelers helped cement them in history. The shorts were like great pop songs--repeated viewings made them all the more familiar to us and made them quotable. Had the Stooges made features, they would have most likey fallen into the same category as Abbott and Costello. And that would have happened with or without Curly. You'd remember classic bits (like A&C routines) but they wouldn't have been seen as often as the shorts, which fit better in the sitcomesque format.
But the debate is asking if history stayed the same and they went down the 2 reeler path at Columbia with ONLY Shemp, would they be remembered? And the answer is yes. All of you who have posted with excitement about Volume 6 have proven my point.
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The floor is now open to any questions from the general public. The floor will be closed on 1am EST Wednesday.
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Is that the buzzer I hear?
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Yup, I hear that buzzer too, WIO. That means it's time for us to post our verdicts. I'll go first.
Before I announce my verdict, I will like to say that I, personally, don’t think the stooges would’ve been where they are today if it hadn’t been for Curly. While Shemp was a funny stooge in his own, unique way, there was something Curly had that made him stand out. It probably was due to the amount of energy he had on screen, his high-pitched voice, his nyuks and woo’s, and his weight.
Of course, as a judge, I can’t just vote for someone solely because I agree with him. I need to vote for the participant that I believe had the best argument. Both S&C and Giff failed to effectively get their point across in their arguments, mainly because they were just stating opinions without backing anything up. This is where I needed the rebuttals to help me come to a decision.
S&C really strengthened his argument a lot in his rebuttal by using examples to back up his argument (such as the classic bits in Fuelin Around, Hula-La-La, etc). Unfortunately, Giff not posting a rebuttal weakened his argument. He did use “Soup to Nuts” as an example, but S&C definitely had a good point when he said that the stooges were still able become memorable in spite of “Woman Haters” being such a weak, forgettable short. Giff didn’t exactly have to wipe Curly out of the picture in order to prove his point, as S&C stated. He could’ve used examples of both Shemp and Curly shorts in order to show us exactly how Curly was significantly better than Shemp. Probably the best way would be to compare the remakes like "A Plumbing We Will Go" and "Vagabond Loafers."
I asked each participant a question to help make my decision. S&C did an excellent job answering his question. Again, he used examples (such as Curly’s performance in Micro-Phonies and Three Little Pirates) to get his point across. Giff’s answer was good, but I was expecting more. I really needed to know exactly what Curly accomplished that Shemp didn't that made him become so memorable.
So, my vote goes to STOOGED AND CONFUSED. While his side may not be the side I agree with, he had the best argument. In fact, I think I may start to agree with his side now as he brought up some really good, valid points in his argument.
Good job, both of you. This topic is very hard to debate on since the only sure fire way of knowing whether the stooges would still be remembered is to go back in time and tell Shemp not to quit. So, I commend you both for the magnificent effort you put into this debate.
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Omigawd, this has been so tough......I'm sure glad that "xraffle" posted his vote before I attempted to do same, simply because I'm having the same basic problem that HE was having -- Keeping my personal feelings out of it, and voting the way the voting SHOULD go -- Pertaining to the arguments and rebuttals as they wqere presented. OK, here goes........
"Stooged And Confused" made an EXCELLENT point in his rebuttal in regards to the argument as to whether the original stooges would be "remembered" (Another incredibly adept choice of words by Shemps#1, who always keeps what I call "a sharpened lack of clarity" when he carefully words his debate topics) -- When Curly had to leave the act, Shemp picked the ball back up, and kept the machine running as the finely-tuned comedy act that they were. I couldn't agree more, and i'll also take this one step farther, in the sense that, since my joining this fan board, even I have come to appreciate Shemp Howard's overall body of work even more than I have in the past. Shemp was the total pro, and easily got the job done.
Then comes "Giff Me Dat Fill-Em." Fill-em's answer to my question to him was INCREDIBLE, when it touched on what he called "Curly's Legacy." To quote Fill-em, " It was partly due to the high level of popularity Curly was responsible for that Shemp’s return to the team was as seamless as it was, as far as the public may have viewed the transition. Had he never left, and as such there would be no wonderful Curly-isms and the like, it would have become what we see on the screen now, with, as I mentioned before, Moe, Larry and Shemp as a very good comedy team that worked well together. But there are contemporaries of Moe, Larry and Shemp with those same credentials - and being good together or cohesive may not be enough to lodge the MLS team firmly in the public’s memory. Curly was the rocket ship that thrust the Stooges into high memorableness, and the Stooges with Shemp is the locomotive that does its job day after day, in a reliable and dependable pattern.
Bingo.
I liken this to the New England Patriots vs. the rest of the current NFL. Sure, people always REMEMBER the other 31 franchises, but when the Patriots had all their people in the right places, players, coaching staff, management, they made things HAPPEN. 3 rings, and a legacy that will be remembered by all fans of the NFL for a LOOOONG time. I love the Shemp shorts, and they were damned good, both pre-and-post Curly, but Jerome 'Curly' Howard was Brady, Belichick, Moss and the rest of the Pats' hierarchy, all rolled into one. The timing of the change, and the following influx of the writers' talents, coupled with this dynamo of film comedy that WAS Curly Howard, thrusted The Three Stooges into comedic film history. I agree, Fill-em -- Curly was the straw that stirred the drink. His appearance and performance helped make history, elevating the level to a point that the Shemp Howard Stooges may not have ever reached. When I sat down and asked myself, "could the Shemp-Moe-Larry Stooges have garnered the same historical support" that catapulted them into the same film-making stratosphere, honestly, I gotta say 'no.'
My vote goes to Giff-Me-Dat-Fill-Em.
Everybody does 'remember' all 32 NFL teams, and that they do exist, but there's remembering, and then, there's REMEMBERING. The Pats will always be remembered for their run, and so will the Stooges, thanks to the Tom Brady of comedy, Jerome 'Curly' Howard.
S&C, I know this is gonna sound hollow, but I do mean it. You didn't lose. Fill-em won. Excellent job, both of you. Thanks to all those who let me participate.....
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I think that Stooge and Confused made a decent argument and almost had me convinced, but (as WIO already mentioned) Giff's point about Curly's role in their comeback won me over. I absolutely love the Shemp shorts, but when I was a kid in the early 60's it was the Curly episodes that thrilled my friends and me. We didn't really appreciate Shemp nearly as much as Curly, and I think it was because Curly always came across as just a big kid himself. We could relate to him, and I think that is probably the biggest reason why the Stooges are still so well known today.
My vote goes to Giff.
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That's funny. Whenever I'm a judge and cast a vote, the other fellow judges vote the other way. I must be evaluating the participants wrong. ;D
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....and my vote goes to..........announced after tomorrow night's Red Sox game. Bwa ha ha haaaaaaa, the suspense shall kill thee, knuckleheads! I'll read over both arguments well during my lunch break tomorrow.
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Bwa ha ha haaaaaaa, the suspense shall kill thee, knuckleheads!
Well if my ass had voted the right way, them knuckleheads wouldn't be in this mess. [pie]
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I don't think this debate was handled too well. The question asked if The Three Stooges would still be remembered today if Shemp never left the act. We should've have gotten more thoughts on Curly and Shemps' place in modern popular culture, not what their peers thought (Laurel Awards, Ed Bernds quotes), or artistic statements (Jules White making special scenes for Curly). What does any of this have to do with how Joe Burger King remembers the boys today? Bobby Clark was considered hysterical by his peers and nobody today remembers Clark and McCullough shorts. Not everything of good quality or popularity back in the day is necessarily remembered today.
Shemp is funny, I love the guy. That said, he has a cult following among us Stooge board people (the minority) but is not as universally loved the way Curly is. There's nothing to lead me to believe Shemp the Stooge, without Curly the Stooge preceeding him in film, would be remembered on his own by anyone except those of us who get excited over Charley Chase DVDs.
I give my vote to GIFF for two reasons. 1.) He picked the right side. 2.) He was right in saying Curly is the draw and main attraction and Shemp would have Internet sites and not much more. That said, this debate called for more pop culture references.
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Third time's a charm, Giff! Congrats! (And this coming from the man who voted against you :-[)
Seriously though, I really mean it. Enjoy the Three Stooges Journal subscription. My voting against someone is nothing personal. It was just an impartial vote. Congrats, again! [clap]
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Without further adieu, Giff, you sir are FINALLY a Master Debater!
It is with something of heavy heart that I am announcing this as the conclusion of the Master Debates. I would like to thank everyone who made this possible, Dunrobin, the participants and the judges that we have had through these five months.
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I have to say, one of the main reasons I voted for S&C was because he provided some great examples and that's what convinced me to vote for him. He had me convinced when he mentioned Shemp doing that short Maharaja bit he jumbled off in "Studio Stoops." When I was a kid, that bit had me laughing hysterically. The way Shemp did that bit was priceless!
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I have to say, one of the main reasons I voted for S&C was because he provided some great examples and that's what convinced me to vote for him. He had me convinced when he mentioned Shemp doing that short Maharaja bit he jumbled off in "Studio Stoops." When I was a kid, that bit had me laughing hysterically. The way Shemp did that bit was priceless!
That's why I thought I would lose. I had no explicit examples to call up, since "If Shemp never left" never happened.
I don't even know if pop culture references would have helped (as Metaldams suggested). AND, S&C kinda shot down the notion of "We should've have gotten more thoughts on Curly and Shemps' place in modern popular culture" as an attempt to sidestep the main argument, that being "If Shemp never left" then bringing up Curly was a moot point.
A tough battle by all, even the judges were hand wringing this time.
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It was a tough debate. It's very difficult to prove something in a scenario that never happened.
The first debate was great because with Joe Vs. Joe, the body of work and history was there for all to see. I always thought the validity of the Charley Chase shorts would've been intriguing. He made six of them, and in my opinion, some are classics and some are turkeys, hence a great debate.
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The first debate was great because with Joe Vs. Joe, the body of work and history was there for all to see. I always thought the validity of the Charley Chase shorts would've been intriguing. He made six of them, and in my opinion, some are classics and some are turkeys, hence a great debate.
I agree and it was a shame that it was the only debate I didn't get involved in. It's a shame this was the last debate because this gives me a great idea for a future debate topic. We could've went to a whole new direction and have a debate on who was the better Marx Brother. It's not stooge related, but you got to admit, it's interesting.