X and Mar-Jean,
A couple of rules Jim failed to mention:
- If you two fail to call me "Judgie Wudgie" or "My Honor" during this contest, I will request you become automatically disqualified.
- If you don't attempt to bribe me with cash, you will become automatically disqualified. I only accept Visa, Mastercard, and Discover.
I've hope I made my self clear. Other than that, I will be completely fair.
Love,
Judgie Wudgie
You mention the new footage is funny, but do you feel funny five minute wraparounds with old footage constitutes artistic growth?
Finebari: How severe do you find Shemp's illness as far as his performance goes? Every Stooge fan to a man (or woman), agrees the last Curly shorts are difficult because of his physical condition, but there is debate about Shemp. Can you perhaps site an example where Shemp's health hindered what otherwise could've been a funny performance?
Just to remind the other judges, if you wish to abstain from questioning please state so in this thread.
xraffle...My question to you is.....Most of your argument seems to argue the point of the Stooges needing tostop AFTER 1956....But, from a purely artistic standpoint, wouldn't you agree that the use of so much stock footage for the four year period (1952-56) seems to suggest that the "Art of the Three Stooges" was being watered down towhat amounts to "Columbia Re-Runs," and the team should have called it quits in '52, instead of exposing their audience to said re-runs?
Finebari3.....My question to you is.... You've chosen your particular point in time, I would surmise, as a result of your love for the Stooges shorts that involve Shemp Howard....If you're approaching this topic from strictly an artistic standpoint, how can you justify your attempt at omitting Shemp Howard's four-year contributions, from the time of late 1952, through 1956?
I jes gotta axt some questions ...
Xraffle – you indicate that “For Crimin’ Out Loud” was the best cut-off point for our boys, and also stated that the short-subjects our guys put out after that one were lukewarm at an average. I’ve read in certain Stooge histories that after Shemp’s death, Moe seriously considered retiring the act, but they had several commitments left to Cohen, and this compelled him to seek out a replacement Stooge. Was Moe (and possibly Larry too) blinded by a commitment to contract to recognize when it was time to throw in the towel?
Did Moe ever watch any of his own shorts and evaluate them for their own artistic qualities? If he did these things, perhaps we may have seen the towel flying over the ropes after Shemp’s death. Any added wisdom on your part will be welcome and introspective.
I jes gotta axt some questions ...
FineBari – Isn’t it weird that you picked 1952 as the cut off date for our boys? (The very year Curly died, on January 18 by the way)
My question is this: If Shemp had a stroke that Curly could comment on, it would have occurred early in January 1952. So, we would begin to notice Shemp's decline after “A Missed Fortune” released Jan. 3, 1952, following this line of reasoning. Can you pinpoint examples of Shemp’s decline beyond this date? (You were unable to earlier due to family problems – perhaps you have access now).
I picked late 1952 as my cut off date simply because Shemp's first stroke happened in November of 1952. I figured that a good time to decide to end the act would be right after that event.
No, I will not be able to go home until Sunday, so I cannot access my collection!
You could try scanning through the Filmography (http://threestooges.net/filmography.php?team=MLS) pages and see if that helps you recall any examples, MJ.
I just skimmed through the episode pages from that time period, and it looks as though the first short that was filmed after the time of Shemp's stroke in late 1952 was Spooks!, which was filmed in May 1953. The previous short, Tricky Dicks, was actually filmed in July 1952.
If this information is accurate, SPOOKS! would have to be considered the first "post-stroke" Shemp short.
Actually, I may have to take this back. Looking at the production numbers, it appears SPOOKS! was released before a large amount of shorts that was filmed before it. I then don't know what the first "post-stroke" Shemp short was.
Notice THREE DARK HORSES was rush released less than two months after it was filmed. Notice it's a political short, released a month before the 1952 presidential election. Timely.
This has intrigued me enough to do a database query to see what we could find. I've arranged the shorts by their production numbers instead of their release dates.
I just gotta say, nice save MJ.
Here are some of the shooting dates that were missing from the chart you posted:
The floor is now closed to the general public and open to the judges to render their verdicts.
Are there any other Columbia films for which anyone would like to know the shooting dates?
--- Rich Finegan
Okay, I have my mind made up, but as I said before I am going to wait and let my fellow judges go first this time.
I'll hopefully have my judgement in by the end of the weekend for the debate.
Okay here are two shooting dates that should be useful:
You mentioned Fright Night, Out West, and For Crimin' Out Loud.
Fright Night was filmed from June 5, 1946 to June 7, 1946.
Out West was filmed from July 8, 1946 to July 11, 1946.
Unfortunately, as I'd noted, my listing stops at the end of 1953, so I do not have the dates for the short For Crimin' Out Loud, and like Fright Night and Out West, the dates are not given in the book "The Three Stooges Scrapbook".
So we still need to find another source for the as yet unlisted Stooges films shooting dates.
--- Rich Finegan
Looks like I won't be getting much sleep this weekend. ;D
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.
The statement, "He should have been in a hospital, not in front of a camera," felt a bit too extreme to me, as no physical evidence was presented that making these shorts actually killed Shemp. Maybe it was his diet that killed him, or maybe it was just his time, shorts or no shorts.
Curly should have been in a hospital, not Shemp! I was writing about Curly's health in that paragraph; I went back and read that again and it does sound a bit confusing. I do mention how Shemp was not as ill as Curly was.
Thank you, Judgie Wudgies, for picking me. The only one that didn't submit a vote was WhyIOughta and I'm still interested in hearing what participant he picked. Finebari3 did an excellent job with her debate and she did bring up some excellent points as to why the stooges should have stopped after Shemp's stroke. She was a worthy opponent.
And my condolences regarding your stepfather, Mar-Jean.
I am also going to extend an invite to you to participate as a judge in TMD III.
This certainly was not my best effort, but I figured 'what the hell'! I didn't see anybody else stepping up and entering the debate! [hello] I will most certainly redeem myself! I have a BA in History, so I wrote a lot of essays in college!
Thank you very much. My mom is ready to get out and go back to work. For those of you who do not know the story, my mother was diagnosed with cancer right before Christmas and had to have a hysterectomy. She came back from the hospital, and the next morning my dad was bringing her some toast in bed, and suffered a massive heart attack and fell down the stairs. My mom could do nothing. Needless to say, our Holidays were pretty bad.
A lot of things still have to be done around the house. You cannot imagine the stuff my dad accumulated; he had over 130 dress shirts alone!
Wow! This debate was certainly interesting. Even though the votes came out 4-0, I still say Mar-Jean did a good job considering that she picked a tough argument. This debate certainly was fun and I'll be looking forward to TMD III.
Thanks a lot, X. You were certainly a worthy opponent! I really think I could have done a better job.It is indeed a tough job defending the position that the 1952-56 shorts shouldn't have been made! I admit I leaned toward your position somewhat, because (1) my enjoyment of Stooge shorts, chronologically, takes its biggest dip at the point where all the recycled Shemp shorts start; and (2) I think it's unfair to Besser to say that the Stooges completely stopped being funny when he joined. Personally I'm glad we have at least the best few Besser shorts, but I frankly wouldn't have missed most of the Curly Joe-era stuff had it never existed.
4-0....I got spanked badly!
I think it's unfair to Besser to say that the Stooges completely stopped being funny when he joined. Personally I'm glad we have at least the best few Besser shorts, but I frankly wouldn't have missed most of the Curly Joe-era stuff had it never existed.
...going back to the last debate, I like DeRita better than Besser.Well, yeah, I can tell.
My favorite is "Have Rocket, Will Travel" because it has the most slapstick in it and it did have a few funny moments. It's a shame that movie didn't make its way to DVD.
II must say I love your handle / name on this board. When one of my sons doesn't properly return one of our DVDs, the first thing they hear from me is, "Giff me dat fillum, or I KEEL YOU!"I always thought that handle was interesting but I never knew what it meant. What "fill-em" is that quote from anyway? (My off-the-top guess would be Dunked In The Deep.)
I always thought that handle was interesting but I never knew what it meant. What "fill-em" is that quote from anyway? (My off-the-top guess would be Dunked In The Deep.)
Oh! Call me stupid! In all the years I've been here, I never knew what that screen name meant. But now I finally know. It's Mr. Bortch's famous line in "Dunked In The Deep" when he chases after the stooges. [doh]
And I do know what Desmond Of The Outer Sanctorum is. It's the ghost that Shemp claimed closed the creaky door in "The Ghost Talk" (or "Creeps"). Remember strange things will happen in this castle. ;)But of course! Except I thought Shemp was pretending to be the host of some radio ghost-story show -- sort of like the "Crypt Keeper" of later days.
But of course! Except I thought Shemp was pretending to be the host of some radio ghost-story show -- sort of like the "Crypt Keeper" of later days.
Ghost/Creeps is by no means a favorite short of mine, but I got a kick out of the name Shemp says. And, as much as I bring up Besser, Shemp is actually my favorite Stooge (as well as my son's).
"Inner Sanctum" was the show..I was gonna say that "Outer Sanctorum" must have been a Stooge-ism for something called the "Inner Sanctum." And I just looked up that show, and its host was "Raymond"!
Except I thought Shemp was pretending to be the host of some radio ghost-story show -- sort of like the "Crypt Keeper" of later days.
They should have kept going, but they should have replaced Shemp (the second time) with Emil Sitka. Imagine that.I like Emil, but in my opinion, it would have been a bit too much like having two Larry's.
They should have kept going, but they should have replaced Shemp (the second time) with Emil Sitka. Imagine that.I completely agree. I feel like Emil had a better sense of what he was doing than, say, Joe Besser or Curly Joe DeRita. Emil had worked with the Stooges previously and had the experience. He knew how the Stooges worked, and the Stooges knew how he worked. I think it would have been a good combination.
I completely agree. I feel like Emil had a better sense of what he was doing than, say, Joe Besser or Curly Joe DeRita. Emil had worked with the Stooges previously and had the experience. He knew how the Stooges worked, and the Stooges knew how he worked. I think it would have been a good combination.I concede that Emil Sitka would have been better suited as a Stooge than Joe Besser, although I still think it would have been somewhat like having two Larrys, which I suppose wouldn't necessarily have been a bad thing - perhaps Emil could have been Larry's long lost brother, or something along that line! From there, it would no doubt have soon become evident whether or not these "Tweaked" Stooges clicked sufficiently by the time they were rehired by Columbia to do Features, assuming that scenario otherwise played out the same way!