Moronika
The community forum of ThreeStooges.net

Black Sabbath Album Discussion Thread

metaldams · 129 · 14549

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Umbrella Sam

  • Toastmaster General
  • Knothead
  • *****
    • Talk About Cinema
Reading about all the management and legal problems they were having around this time, I think it’s impressive that the band were able to find the focus and inspiration to make an album at all, and the result is good, although I do think the first two tracks are the weakest on the album. The vocals on “Hole in the Sky” (and the whole album in general) are indeed very good, but when I listen to it, I just think of “Looking For Today”, and it’s not nearly as catchy as that..and, yeah, the ending of the song seemed off to me too, but I’m not sure if that’s just how it is on streaming versus the original album. “Don’t Start (Too Late)” is very forgettable, probably my least favorite Black Sabbath instrumental in a while.

The rest of the album, though...very cool stuff. I loved the drumming on “Symptom of the Universe” as well as the little acoustic/bongo detour it takes near the end. “Megalomania” is a very atmospheric song; I can see the opening very well being played in a graveyard, and it’s another one of those songs that’s long but never feels like its length due to all the various things happening in it. I can see the arena rock connection to “Thrill of it All”; another solid riff and one I could imagine going down well live.

“Supertzar” is awesome. I don’t know if it’s just me thinking this, but this sounds very much like something that could have been a precursor to symphonic metal. Everything about it screams epic; the choir, the harp, the guitar...it all has a really awesome classical feel to it that’s given a harder edge. I could very well see this being played in a modern fantasy video game. “Am I Going Insane (Radio)” is also really awesome; the mixture of the synthesizer and Ozzy’s vocals was really cool, definitely capturing a very futuristic feel. “The Writ” is another good closer; I love the bass opening and much like “Symptom of the Universe”, it takes these really cool detours in the music where they go a bit softer, this time using harpsichord. I actually kind of like “Blow on a Jug”. It’s funny you mention the connection to ABBEY ROAD, metaldams, because I was thinking more SGT. PEPPER with its crazy fadeout at the end, which I like, unlike”Her Majesty”, which just feels like a throwaway they screwed up the ending to.

If this is indeed the end of Black Sabbath’s “classic era”, then it is indeed a good end to the run, but we’ll see soon if that reputation is entirely deserved.
“I’ll take a milkshake...with sour milk!” -Shemp (Punchy Cowpunchers, 1950)

My blog: https://talk-about-cinema.blogspot.com


Offline metaldams

Again, glad you guys are digging this.  Interesting take about comparing “Supertzar” to symphonic metal - I’m going to have to stream some Nightwish now.

As far as this being the end of the classic Ozzy era, my rebuttal will come with the next album but yes, according to popular belief, this is the case.  Ozzy’s initial replacement singer starting album number nine is Ronnie James Dio and the parallels with Curly and Shemp as far as perception go are very much the same.  Ozzy and Curly are more known to the general public but there are hardcore fans who swear up and down Shemp and Dio are better.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline metaldams


Offline metaldams



      Album number seven of eight with the original line up is 1976’s TECHNICAL ECSTASY.  The band’s management situation was still up in the air at this point and they decided to record this one in sunny Miami with Tony Iommi producing.  Iommi complained he did the bulk of the work while the rest of the band relaxed on the beach, so combined with the continued drug use, band tensions are brewing.  From a culturally accepted point of view, this album and the next are considered low points of the Ozzy era, which I will get to in a moment.  Commercially this album only charted number 52 in the U.S. but they still headlined Madison Square Garden on this tour.  So yeah, about TECHNICAL ECSTASY ending the classic Ozzy era, read my take below.

      I think the issue is Black Sabbath, in the minds of a lot of people, invented heavy metal.  People expect doomy heavy riffs and not much else.  Black Sabbath, in the seventies, did a lot more than that and that continues, even more so, on TECHNICAL ECSTASY.  The pre punk seventies in general were an adventurous time for music and Black Sabbath were a part of that.  If you go on YouTube and watch the tons of album ranking videos of Black Sabbath albums, of about twenty albums, a lot of times you will see this album in the bottom three and the Dio and Tony Martin albums ranking above all the Ozzy albums.  Dio maybe I can understand, but the Tony Martin stuff?  Again, it’s the whole heavy metal thing.  Those albums are more pure metal than TECHNICAL ECSTASY and the seventies stuff in general, but especially TECHNICAL ECSTASY.  I think you guys reading this aren’t metal purists so I’m sure you’ll have an open mind concerning this album. 

       As for me?  I worship this album.  I’ve listened to this album countless times for the past thirty years and like every album from PARANOID to here, is a 10/10 in my book.  Black Sabbath is my favorite band of the seventies for a reason.  I love the diversity of the songs, the lyrics, the sound, the playing, everything.  This album has always hit me emotionally and is an underdog favorite of mine.  I know it like the back of my hand.  Onto the track by track.

“Back Street Kids” Pretty heavy galloping opening riff and a song about no matter how famous they are and all the BS they have to go through, they’re still just a bunch of kids from Birmingham who want to play rock.  Perhaps a wishful yearning for simpler times.  A pretty rocking track and one thing I noticed right away was the dominant synthesizer section.  This time Sabbath hired a pro so Gerald Woodroffe (who would later work with Robert Plant solo), plays all the keyboards on this album.  The bridge, melodically, always reminded of something that would sound at home on an early Ozzy solo album.  Cool song.

“You Won’t Change Me”  A classic in my eyes.  Love the slow, doomy riff that starts the song, the keyboard riff before the verses, the lyrics and especially Tony Iommi’s lead playing throughout.  I actually think some of Iommi’s best soloing is on this album.  His tone is really good here as well.  Lyrically about yearning for love but knowing somehow that won’t change all that’s inside anyway.  Really love this song.

“It’s Alright”  If Ozzy sounds different to you here, that’s because it’s drummer Bill Ward singing - and he’s wonderful.  A very Paul McCartney meets Brian Wilson kind of song, not the kind of thing one associates with Sabbath.  Tony’s lead guitar here is again amazing and has a bit of a Brian May feel to it.  A lot of people think he was inspired by Queen at this time and sure enough, Tony Iommi and Brian May, to this day, are real good friends.  But yes, another total classic in my eyes, Bill Ward proving he can sing and go into Beatles territory quite well.  Covered live by Guns N’ Roses on the Use Your Illusion tour.

“Gypsy” What do Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Fleetwood Mac, Deep Purple, Mercyful Fate and future Sabbath singer Dio all have in common?  A song with this title.  Uriah Heep was first.  The Sabbath Gypsy is again another classic, a really atmospheric and progressive number that is a cool fantasy song.  Starts sci-fi, turns seductive and ends evil.  Lots of different parts to this song that gel together extremely well. Love it.

“All Moving Parts (Stand Still)” Geezer Butler - funk bass.  If those words don’t conjure up extreme levels of awesomeness, I don’t know what to tell you.  Yes, there’s some funky bass and keyboards here and it really works well.  The bridge takes the song in another heavy and progressive direction - I really like the way they mix up styles on this song and album in general.  Like “Cornucopia,” another song whose lyrics I did not understand until fairly recently.  Get down with Geezer, funk master general.

“Rock ‘n’ Roll Doctor”  A song that gets criticized a lot.  Yes, it’s Sabbath doing a boogie song with a bit more cliched lyrics than usual.  So what?  When the rhythm section is that pounding and swinging and Ozzy’s vocal that strong, it works.  The lead guitar break also takes the song off in another direction briefly, giving the song an identity beyond a basic boogie song.  A well performed, kick ass song as far as I’m concerned.

“She’s Gone”  Yet another song that gets criticized a lot.  It’s a straight acoustic ballad with strings.  If you ask me, it’s beautiful.  I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - Sabbath may be known for heavy music, but when they get mellow and soft, they sound more heartfelt and real than most soft rock groups.  At least to my ears.  Ozzy’s vocals with this arrangement and lyrics gets me every time and I love the way Geezer’s bass fills out the second verse.  A song about a man losing his woman in heartbreaking fashion - simple yet well done.

“Dirty Women”  The biggest concert staple on the album.  When I saw Sabbath in 1999, I was pleasantly surprised they played this song.  The title is self explanatory and I’ve always gotten a laugh that the previous song is about a guy with extreme heartbreak over losing a woman and the next song about a guy in the streets looking for one.  A mini concept album?  Anyway, my bizarre thoughts aside, a really great song and the riff during the chorus is the heaviest on the album for sure.  Another song that goes through a few cool parts and ends as a wonderful guitar showcase for Iommi and an excuse for Ozzy to throw water on the crowd and moon everybody - probably why they play it live.  Great album closer.

So yeah, as you can see, I love this album.  I love every single song and I have had several phases these past few decades where I listen to this album a lot.  TECHNICAL ECSTASY has always been a favorite of mine.  While the heavy metal purists tend to knock this one, there are enough of the hardcore faithful that appreciate this album and I’m one of them.  I don’t do Facebook, but this album even has a Facebook page for fans of this album, linked below, known as “Technical Ecstasy Appreciation Society.”  I hope you enjoy this one as after this, we have one more album with Ozzy and then we are introduced to Jack Black’s favorite singer, the mighty Ronnie James Dio.

https://www.facebook.com/sabtechex/


- Doug Sarnecky


Offline HomokHarcos

I'm not one who generally thinks an artist has to do a certain style, if I have fun and enjoy what I'm consuming I'm happy. It's a similar thing with Buster Keaton and Harry Langdon working for Columbia, yes they were basically doing Three Stooges comedy, but I found them entertaining.

"Back Street Kids": This a rocking song, and looking at the length would have been a good radio single. The synthesizers worked pretty well here, enhancing the music with it. "You Won't Change Me" is a rocking, almost jam-like song that reminds me of their earlier albums.

"It's Alright" caught me by surprise, I wasn't expecting a song like that. I did notice it wasn't Ozzy singing, but couldn't have told you who the vocalist was. The chorus is very good, and a nice change of pace in this album. "Gypsy" definitely sounds like a mid 1970s song with it's sound, almost giving me arena rock vibes similar to other bands from that time. "All Moving Parts (Standing Still)" might be the closest we see the band attempting to play funk, it gives a very catchy chorus as is usual for funk, almost reminds me of the Commodores. The guitar playing is also very good.

"Rock 'n Roll Doctor" has my favorite guitar playing in the whole album, I wouldn't have guessed this song was disliked so much, but then again I'm not one who will let lyrics ruin a song for me. The keyboards being used in a boogie-woogie style is fascinating. "She's Gone" has a very beautiful instrumentation. When it started I assumed it would be a short song like many of the other mellow pieces we've heard, but I liked that it was given full length. "Dirty Women" was a good closer to the album. The ending of the song brought a great, mostly instrumental section.

I definitely didn't think it was too much of a drop from their previous albums, but the ratings on Rate Your Music suggest that's how many people feel.


Offline metaldams



I posted the It’s Alright video above.  There’s also one made for Rock ‘n’ Roll Doctor.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline Umbrella Sam

  • Toastmaster General
  • Knothead
  • *****
    • Talk About Cinema
This is the so-called “low point” of the Ozzy era? This album? I was listening throughout, trying to find out what the so-called “low points” were, and I could not for the life of me find out. Instead, I found an album I really enjoyed from start to finish. In fact, I would go so far as saying I preferred it to SABOTAGE.

“Back Street Kids” is a great opener because outside of the little bits of synth occasionally thrown in, it feels very much like classic Sabbath, something you could of heard on MASTER OF REALITY or VOLUME 4. It feels very much like a callback, a reminder of where they came from. I agree about the keyboard riff before the verses on “You Won’t Change Me”. Really cool, and that combined with the smashing drums throughout make this the type of song I’d most associate with the album cover; they make it sound as though the world is falling apart. Ward’s voice works for “It’s Alright”. The piano and bass really keep the pace going well on this one. “Gypsy” has a very dramatic sound to it, and the backing vocals support this, probably the most unique use of backing vocals I’ve heard from Black Sabbath yet. Once again, the piano and bass really stand out especially; this is the first Black Sabbath album in quite some time where I think the bass is standing out consistently throughout.

“All Moving Parts (Stand Still)” is a really catchy song; it pulls you right in from the beginning, and that guitar riff keeps your attention. I like “Rock ‘N’ Roll Doctor” too. Lyrically it may not be great, but the guitar playing still feels very much like Sabbath and the piano playing contributes to that boogie-woogie style, a style that I like. “She’s Gone” is fantastic. The acoustic riffs, the strings, the sorrow in Ozzy’s voice...this song is incredibly powerful and atmospheric. This is my favorite song on the album. Ozzy’s voice and Tony’s guitar blend so well together on “Dirty Women”, and they get another chance to do this really cool instrumental section in the middle. It’s 7 minutes, but it definitely doesn’t feel like it. It really feels like a proper closing, very well made.

So, yeah, I’m with you guys, I think this is a really solid album and I agree it should be considered among their classics as well. It’s got the right amount of variety and even if there was turmoil and issues with the band, to me, that’s not reflected in the record; this still very much sounds like a lineup that was still capable of creating great music together.
“I’ll take a milkshake...with sour milk!” -Shemp (Punchy Cowpunchers, 1950)

My blog: https://talk-about-cinema.blogspot.com


Offline metaldams

Glad you guys dig this one.  I was hoping it would be the case and I think it proves if you don’t go into this album with a heavy metal mindset - like most Sabbath fans do, there’s a ton of great music here.  Might as well post the next album review since it’s already written.  Listen whenever you’re ready.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline metaldams



     

       After the TECHNICAL ECSTASY tour in 1977, a major even happens for Black Sabbath - Ozzy leaves the band!  A combination of long brewing tensions, drugs and Ozzy losing his father.  In the fall of 1977, Black Sabbath get a new singer named Dave Walker and begin writing material for the next album which will be released in 1978 called NEVER SAY DIE.  Dave Walker was previously in brief stints with Savoy Brown and a pre Stevie Nicks blues based version of Fleetwood Mac.  The line up with Dave Walker even appeared on the BBC and recorded one track for them that was publicly aired called “Junior’s Eyes.”  It would be the only thing of note with this line up as Ozzy returned to the band in early 1978.

[/youtube]

      After Ozzy returned, all of the songs were already written for the next album and the band went to Toronto in the dead of winter to record.  Here’s the problem - Ozzy refused to sing any of Dave Walker lyrics and melodies!  So all of the vocals and lyrics were basically rewritten by day and recorded by night.  So yes, between recording in Toronto in the dead of winter in a studio that wasn’t ideal, the Ozzy situation, the continued drug problems, things weren’t good.  I believe this was around the time they got infamous mafioso manager Don Arden.  He is also the father of Sharon Arden - later last name Osbourne.  Yup, that Sharon, who I’m sure you all know as Ozzy’s manager and from levels of fame way beyond music.  She’ll play into the story, both coming soon and until the present era.

      As far as the music goes, I like NEVER SAY DIE, but it is my least favorite of the eight with the original line up.  It really boils down to this.  There are nine tracks.  I love the first six and the last three not so much - though one of the tracks is growing on me in recent years.  The band is continuing in the experimental direction over the last few albums and not being heavy by Black Sabbath standards.  Keyboards are on the album again, this time played by Don Airey.  He would go on to play for Ozzy solo (You guys know the intro to “Mr. Crowley?” That’s him), and a zillion other acts over the years before being the current keyboardist for Deep Purple the past twenty years.  Deep Purple.  Get used to that name because with all the line up changes we’re about to witness, a good percentage of these people have some degree of separation with Deep Purple.  Onto the track by track.

 “Never Say Die”  Classic title track and the most famous song on the album.  This song was big enough in England where Sabbath got to play Top of the Pops.  It’s a hard hitting, swinging pop song about perseverance, something the band desperately needed at this point.  Love the melody here, be it’s Ozzy’s singing or the counterpoint guitar lines Tony plays.  A fantastic bridge that’s Beatle worthy.  Very moving, fast paced rhythm section.  Awesome opening track.

“Johnny Blade”  Big solo synthesizer intro by Don Airey that goes into this awesome Iommi riff - my favorite on the album, before going into the verse.  Bill Ward is on fire throughout this entire track, a fantastic drum performance.  Lyrically as I understand it, it’s about Bill Ward’s brother, a street gang type of guy.  The song musically progresses in a few cool directions with tempo and chord/melody changes and ends in this fantastic instrumental break.  Really a great showcase for Iommi’s playing.  Another classic.

“Junior’s Eyes”  Compare this to the Dave Walker version to see the kind of changes made.  I like both versions but the Ozzy version is more meaningful.  The lyrics were written about Ozzy’s final days with his father, who just died of cancer.  Great bass playing by Geezer in the intro with some tasteful guitar playing sprinkled throughout.
A melodically beautiful song and another track I really love.

“A Hard Road”  Another song released as a single.  A swinging rhythm section again with fantastic melodic bass playing from Geezer Butler.  The only song in the entire Black Sabbath catalog to feature backing vocals from Tony and Geezer.  The refrain repeated at the end with those backing vocals has a sort of “Hey Jude” feel to it and whether the band knew it or not, reflects where they were at and where they were going. 

“Shock Wave”  The start of side two and lyrically, this seems like a throwback to the first album.  Horror themed lyrics and there’s even a reference to “the chosen one” - just like the song “Black Sabbath” from the first album.  Musically it’s heavy in parts but takes on more melodic parts and is more progressive than the early albums, reflecting the current songwriting style.  So musically, 1978 Sabbath.  Lyrically, 1970 Sabbath.  An interesting combination.

“Air Dance”  Love, love, love this song.  Total chill and mellowness.  A somewhat Iron Maiden like guitar intro followed by this really beautiful verse about an older ballerina pining for her past glory days.  Fantastic piano playing throughout by Don Airey and some really nice melodic Tony Iommi fills.  The middle of the song gets real dream like with the piano and Iommi’s playing.  Hard to describe, but it always puts me in this tranquil place, it’s so beautiful.  Then the song gets much faster into almost jazz fusion territory.  A really awesome and underrated song, perhaps the last great track from this line up.

“Over to You”  Now things start to go downhill.  On the positive side, it’s melodically not bad and it has some good bass playing from Geezer.  There are times where
it feels like the song is about to grab me but fails to fully do so.  I think there’s just a lack of energy here.  Both Ozzy and the band sound tired, like the tempo needs to pick up.  There’s no fire here.  Adding to the picture of the state of the band, there are two songs left on the album, yet “Over to You” is Ozzy’s swan song for the 70’s era of Sabbath.  How’s that?  Read on.

“Breakout” An instrumental with a ton of brass instruments.  I’m not a fan, my least favorite Ozzy era Black Sabbath track.  This literally sounds like it should be the intro to Saturday Night Live.  I can picture the announcer introducing this week’s guests over it.  Not intended to be an instrumental but when Ozzy heard the music, he flat out refused to sing over it.  I side with Ozzy on this one.

“Swinging the Chain”  A song I did not like for years that has finally grown on me.  A really nice riff, swinging rhythm and vocals by Bill Ward.  A good butt shaker of a song to end the Ozzy era - with a Bill Ward vocal.

      The NEVER SAY DIE tour needs a mention.  The opening act was some new band called Van Halen.  Most people say Van Halen routinely blew Sabbath off the stage.  Some people say Sabbath held their own but had strong competition.  Either way, Van Halen in 1978 were this new and exciting band with Eddie Van Halen revolutionizing lead guitar playing.  As a contrast, Black Sabbath had a line up at the end of its rope.  I strongly prefer the entire Black Sabbath catalog over the entire Van Halen catalog but while I enjoy most of NEVER SAY DIE, even I admit the first Van Halen album is better.  That must have been an interesting tour to catch.  The final public date of this tour and line up in its initial phase was December 11, 1978 in Albuquerque, NM.  One day after the death of Ed Wood and thirteen days before my birth.

      Come 1979, the band were writing the next album, but little progress was being made.  Ozzy barely showed up and while the entire band had drug issues, Ozzy’s were worse.  One day they decided to fire Ozzy and Bill Ward was the one who had to break the news.  This line up has some reunion tours and a grand total of two studio tracks left to record, but that’s far into the future.  For now, Black Sabbath are about to get a legendary singer named Ronnie James Dio.  I will get into his background and circumstances in joining the band next time.  As for Ozzy, he will go on to be a solo star, public enemy number one and a reality TV icon.  I’ll mention his solo career when it clashes with the Sabbath story but as a public service announcement, the solo stuff is worth exploring, especially those first two albums with guitarist Randy Rhoads.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline metaldams

Footage from the era.



“Never Say Die” Top of the Pops 1978



“A Hard Road” video

[ Invalid YouTube link ]



Commercially released concert from the tour.  Along with Paris 1970 (also worth scoping out on YouTube), the only close to full footage from the 70’s.  Half hour Midnight Special 1975 and parts of the California Jam 1974 also exist.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline HomokHarcos

This definitely exceeded my expectations. Instead of being a sad finale to Ozzy's run with Black Sabbath it was a very good final album, with some of my favorite Black Sabbath songs. Some of the songs are good 1970s hard rockers, but it's the more experimental/jazzy songs I like the best.

"Never Say Die", "Junior's Eyes", "Hard Road", and "Swinging the Chain" are the more pure rockers on the album. They all are good at what they do, which is going for the mainstream rock sound of the period, that I mentioned earlier. They deliver on all of them.

But the songs I liked most on the album are the ones they tried to add more gimmicks on such as synthesizers, or when they go into jazz. "Johnny Blade" has a very good synthesizer section at the beginning. I wish they made more use of it later in the song, because whenever it shows up it gives it a cool feeling. I'm starting to really like that use of the instrument.

"Air Dance" is my new favorite Black Sabbath song. It's a jazz fusion/prog rock epic with so many sections that are all great. I'll run them down.
1)Rocking opening that sounds like it will lead us to another pure hard rocker
2)Excellent shift with one of my favorite guitar sounds, with an added piano to make it even greater. There's even some Santana style guitar playing thrown in
3)Less guitar, but the piano playing is now in the center, very beautiful
4)The jazz fusion section at the end to round out the song.
I knew instantly this was my favorite Black Sabbath song I ever heard, and it alone makes the album far from a disappointment.

"Over to You" is actually a pretty good follow up. I like the bass and piano playing in this song. "Breakout" probably is the weakest link on this album. It sounds a theme song fitting for Val Venis or Rick Rude.


Offline metaldams

Every time I hear “Breakout” from now on all I’m going to think is, “Hellooooo, ladies.”  Can’t believe I never thought of Venis and Rude and thought SNL instead.

I figured you’d like “Air Dance” because of all the jazz fusion stuff.  I know that’s your style and I’m glad you like the song.  A lot of Sabbath fans don’t get it but the ones who do really tend to like it a lot.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline Umbrella Sam

  • Toastmaster General
  • Knothead
  • *****
    • Talk About Cinema
Unlike the last album, I can kind of see signs of how tensions were in the band with this music, but there’s still a lot to like about this. “Never Say Die” kind of reminds me of “Paranoid”. The highlights of this song for me are that awesome bridge, Iommi’s guitar playing near the end, and the low pitched “Never Say Die” at the very end. The synthesizer on “Johnny Blade” at the beginning is indeed really cool, but the standout for me here is Iommi’s guitar solo near the end. Overall, the riffs on this album don’t feel quite as catchy as on most Sabbath albums, but Iommi’s guitar solos feel more fleshed out to make up for that, and they’re some of the best solos I’ve heard from him.

“Junior’s Eyes” was really cool. The bass playing throughout was solid, and there was this especially awesome part in the middle where Iommi had some acoustic playing countering his electric playing. It does indeed feel like a very emotional song, and yet it still feels like a rocker at the same time. I really love this song, it’s probably one of my favorite Black Sabbath songs so far. I also listened to the Dave Walker version, and it’s also good, but more focused on the rock side and not as emotional. “Hard Road” was really cool from a vocal perspective. Not just the backing vocals, either; I really liked Ozzy’s harmonizing throughout this song. “Shock Wave” is another one where Iommi carries the song through his solos more than the actual riffs.

“Air Dance” is also really awesome, probably my favorite track here. I too love all the constant changes; the way it starts off more like a rock song, then shifts to a lighter sound and a big piano focus. Really well done, and the jazz fusion part at the end is also a cool change of pace. I’m with HomokHarcos on “Over to You”; I actually thought this was fairly memorable as well. The piano playing on it feels like a callback to the previous song, and I like how fast it’s played whenever it appears, like an interesting counterpoint to the rest of the song being slower. “Breakout” on the other hand...I agree, pretty bad. This song is like if you took John Lennon’s “Beef Jerky” (which is a song I already don’t like), and made it even worse by slowing it down. “Swinging the Chain” isn’t super memorable, but Bill Ward once again gets a chance to show off a pretty good singing voice.

So yeah, not quite as good as the previous album, but to its credit, it still flows well for the majority of it, and “Junior’s Eyes” and “Air Dance” are especially great songs. Despite the irony of not actually ending the album with a song featuring Ozzy, this was not a bad finale for the original lineup.
“I’ll take a milkshake...with sour milk!” -Shemp (Punchy Cowpunchers, 1950)

My blog: https://talk-about-cinema.blogspot.com


Offline metaldams

Maybe, just maybe, “Over to You” will hit me one of these days.  Both of you guys like it, so that’s cool. I do agree about less riffs but Iommi’s lead playing carrying this album, it seems to be the case for the last two Ozzy era albums.

Coming next



Lookout!
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline metaldams




      So there’s a new singer named Ronnie James Dio.  Who is he?  He was a bit older than the other guys, born in 1942.  You can find videos of a young version of him on YouTube, pre Beatles era, singing tracks from 45’s he released with various bands, including Phil Spector’s “Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?” amongst other things.  He’s from  upstate New York and spent the 60’s playing in local bands.  Got his first real break in 1972 when his band Elf got signed and recorded three albums.  They were a boogie style hard rock band who also served as the opening act for Deep Purple.  In early 1975, guitar maestro Ritchie Blackmore (my favorite guitar player) left Deep Purple to form a band called Rainbow.  He took all the Elf guys, minus the guitar player, for the first album.  The Elf guys, with the exception of Dio, then all got replaced before the first tour.  Dio would record three studio albums and a double live album with Rainbow.  Dio’s Rainbow stuff is all classic material that I highly recommend.  Dio had a real powerful yet soulful voice and this was ahead of its time heavy metal, for the most part.  The lyrics were mostly more fantasy based and in late 1978, Blackmore wanted Rainbow to go in a more commercial direction - which indeed they did.  Dio doesn’t do relationship pop songs at this point, so he leaves Rainbow.  He gets the recommendation for the Sabbath gig from none other than Sharon Arden/Osbourne.  This is just before she was with Ozzy and reeks of irony, as Ozzy and Sharon would soon have a professional rivalry with Dio.

      Dio is on a technical level a better singer than Ozzy - actually, all the other Black Sabbath singers are better technical singers than Ozzy.  However, Ozzy has this certain relatable and unique quality to his voice and when you combine that with Geezer Butler’s lyrics, something really relatable, at least for me, on those first eight Sabbath albums is missing going forward.  Yes, Geezer is no longer writing lyrics anymore.  As great as he was at it, it’s not something he wanted to continue pursuing and Dio is more than a capable lyricist.  For whatever quality is lost from the Ozzy era, what is gained is Dio’s incredible singing voice and another set of amazing songs which Dio helped write.  Truly a Curly into Shemp situation.  Also the introduction of keyboardist Geoff Nichols, who will be the keyboardist for just about the rest of the catalogue, though rarely credited as an official member.

      That experimental stuff on those later Ozzy albums?  Gone.  I think it has as much to do with the times as Dio joining the band.  HEAVEN AND HELL was released in 1980, the year heavy metal truly solidified itself as a cultural movement, thanks to these new British bands known as The New Wave of British Heavy Metal (NWOBHM).  So yes, this album, and pretty much all the albums going forward, are metal albums.  As a result, there are plenty of people online who consider HEAVEN AND HELL the greatest Black Sabbath album ever.  As for me?  It’s not even my favorite Dio Sabbath album, but I really like it a lot.  Also should be mentioned the producer here is the legendary and recently deceased Martin Birch.  He worked with Deep Purple, Rainbow, Whitesnake and Iron Maiden among several others and definitely belongs in the league of best rock producers. HEAVEN AND HELL, sonically, is one of the best sounding Sabbath albums.  Onto the track by track.

“Neon Knights”  These days, it’s cool to like Dio.  In the grunge dominated nineties, when I first heard this, it was not.  I remember approaching this album with trepidation and took a risk buying one of those non Ozzy Sabbath albums.  I’ll never forget putting the CD in and hearing this song for the first time.  Whatever trepidation I had melted away in about two seconds.  There’s no denying the energy right out of the gate here.  Fantastic playing by the band, amazing Dio vocals and hooks for miles.  A great song for anybody who has a pulse and a true classic.  Next.

“Children of the Sea”  A light and shade metal ballad classic.  Starts out with acoustic guitar with some really tasteful electric guitar and bass fills on top.  Actually, the melodic bass playing on this song is fantastic.  So are Dio’s vocals.  There’s a new melodic sensibility throughout this album with Sabbath and Dio no doubt played a part.  Also love the instrumental section with Iommi’s solo and the Geoff Nichols keyboards adding flavor.  A power ballad, if you will, and a classic one at that.

“Lady Evil”  Never has been a favorite of mine.  I suppose it’s pleasant enough melodically and I do like the instrumental section.  It’s just a bit cliched for Sabbath and never cared for the lyrics.  I suppose I’d like the song better if Foghat did it, but I hold Sabbath to a higher standard.  Speaking of higher standard….

“Heaven and Hell”  One of the greatest Black Sabbath songs ever, top five for sure.  Also one of the great Dio songs from all the projects he’d go on to do.  A masterpiece on every level.  Fantastic lyrics which get more and more meaningful the older I get.  Several wonderful dynamic and tempo changes throughout.  I love the way the song slowly builds to that climatic fast part and then slows things down for that beautiful classical guitar fade out.

“Wishing Well”  An underrated song.  Listen to Bill and Geezer on this track, they’re really driving it along the whole time and the bass playing is really melodic just the same.  Again a renewed sense of melody here, another fantastic song.

“Die Young”  Another classic and an acknowledged one.  Atmospheric keyboards again open the song leading into some tasteful Iommi playing.  Once the rhythm section kicks in, it turns into this intense metal song and then goes into this wonderful, mellow, piano driven chorus.  A great song showing off Dio’s dynamic range, love it.

“Walk Away”  I’ve heard it said and I kind of agree, that opening riff sounds a bit Van Halen like.  A slick, cool, melodic metal track with some good hooks and a really atmospheric instrumental section.  Another pretty underrated song in my mind.

“Lonely is the Word”  The dramatic closer.  A slow, dirge like, dramatic blues number with a real beefy rhythm section.  I really love Iommi’s lyrical guitar playing towards the end of the, but listen to the keyboard riff that repeatedly closes out the album.  It makes for nice drama, but it sounds like it was lifted from “Stairway to Heaven.”  I’m surprised more people don’t mention this.

So overall, a really good melodic heavy metal album.  Ronnie James Dio does add another real cool dimension to Black Sabbath and if this is your introduction to the man, I hope you enjoy.  There is a lot of cool music of his to explore.

So more to the story here.  I just want to add as an aside during the writing process, Geezer Butler actually did leave the band for a few months but returned in time to record the album.  Personal reasons.  Not sure if it’s substance or family or a combination of the two.  He had a son born around this time.  But he did return. 

More importantly, there’s the Bill Ward situation.  In August 1980, right in the middle of the tour, Bill Ward left the band.  Alcoholism, Bill had to clean himself up.  When his friend John Bonham died a month later due to alcohol, Bill was laying in bed when he heard the news and said he’d be next.  Fortunately Bill is still with us and has been sober since 1984.  He’ll be back in Sabbath.

Mid tour, they had to cancel some dates and about ten days later, had a new drummer ready named Vinny Appice.  The younger brother of drum legend Carmine Appice, he would go on to play on the next Black Sabbath album and a few others.  He previously played with Rick Derringer.  For your Elton John and Black Sabbath connection, Vinny, as a teenager, did handclaps on “Whatever Gets You Through the Night.” 
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline metaldams


Offline Umbrella Sam

  • Toastmaster General
  • Knothead
  • *****
    • Talk About Cinema
(...This is my favorite Black Sabbath album so far)



Yes, yes, I know people really like Ozzy. I like him too, but...this album, there was just something about it that really kept my attention consistently in a way I don’t think I’ve heard on any Black Sabbath album yet. Even VOL. 4, which I did consider my favorite for the longest time, still has that filler song in “FX”.

I had never heard of Ronnie Dio prior to hearing this album. Coming in, I was not sure what to expect, as even before really listening to Black Sabbath for these discussions, I had always known Ozzy as the main image. But man, this guy is cool; as distinct as Ozzy’s voice is, I think based off of this album that I do prefer Dio’s, not the least because it feels like he makes more use out of vocal harmonies.

The first two tracks are absolutely amazing. “Neon Knights” really pulls you in from the beginning with a very catchy melody. Iommi’s guitar solo in the middle is especially awesome. “Children of the Sea” reminds me a bit of “Snowblind” in its electric riff, but with the addition of acoustic guitar at the beginning and end. You can see where I’m getting at...this surpasses “Snowblind” as my favorite Sabbath song so far. I really do see what you mean when you mention the melodic sensibility with this album; the bass playing here especially feels very melodic. “Lady Evil” isn’t quite as immediate as those first two tracks, but it’s still a fun, uptempo song that shows off Dio’s harmonies in the choruses.

“Heaven and Hell” also has some great vocals and melodic bass playing throughout, but what I especially loved about this one is the use of acoustic guitar in the fade out, right up there with “Looking For Today” as my favorite fadeout on a Sabbath song. “Wishing Well” is a fun, uptempo song that has a super catchy hook with the line “Your wishing well”. “Die Young” once again makes great use of Dio’s harmony vocals and also uses keyboards to create a great string-like effect that, combined with the piano, makes one of the most unique-sounding Sabbath songs yet. Once again, another great fadeout, this time coming from Iommi’s electric guitar.

“Walk Away” isn’t quite as memorable as the tracks that preceded it, but once again all the playing from the vocal harmonies to the bass work is great and has a true melodic feeling to it. “Lonely Is the Word” is a slower, atmospheric song that makes for a good album closer. There’s a part in the first two minutes I especially love where multiple guitars are playing and it’s almost like they’re playing some for sort of slow dance. I really enjoy it, and much like the rest of this album, it’s got a strong sense of melody that really kept me engaged throughout.

This was such an awesome album. I was smiling from start to finish listening to it and am now more excited than ever to explore more of Dio’s work with Black Sabbath. I’ll have to check out more of his other stuff too.
“I’ll take a milkshake...with sour milk!” -Shemp (Punchy Cowpunchers, 1950)

My blog: https://talk-about-cinema.blogspot.com


Offline HomokHarcos

What I noticed from this album is that it is much more riff based and straight up hard rock, so once again Tommy Iommi is the key member for me. As for Ronnie James Dio, this really is another Curly vs. Shemp situation. I prefer Dio's vocals, but I will admit they probably aren't as unique as Ozzy's.

"Neon Knights" gave me some of the same thoughts that you mentioned, it reminds me a lot of the New Wave of Heavy Metal bands like Judas Priest and Iron Maiden. A great introduction to the Dio era, it starts off with a bang. The guitar solo near the middle of the song is very good. "Children of the Sea", being a fan of power ballads, was probably my favorite song of the album. I love it when a song has a great acoustic and electric sections. "Lady Evil" has a very noticeable bass presence throughout, it's rare when I notice it more than the guitar, but that was the case here. "Heaven and Hell": I can understand your appreciation for this song. It does have that epic feel to it, with several changes throughout.

"Wishing Well" is another song that I really liked the bass playing in. The album was mixed very well, if you can hear all the instruments well. It was also at this time I realized there were no synthesizers. "Die Young" is my second favorite song on this album, once again thanks to Iommi's guitar songs. While Ozzy may have been the face of the band, I think replacing him would have been much tougher. "Walk Away" would be a perfect radio song, it makes me think of being in car during the summer seeing the street and country roads. "Lonely is the Word" is a good closer, and completes what Umbrella Sam stated earlier, that there is not a bad track on here.


Offline metaldams

It’s cool HEAVEN AND HELL is your favorite so far, Sam.  A lot of people agree with you.  I’m slightly more of a MOB RULES guy when it comes to Dio Sabbath, but I can totally understand people preferring HEAVEN AND HELL.  They’re both great.

Homok, as far as Tony being irreplaceable, he is the only person to be on every Black Sabbath album, so there is something to that.  As far as line up changes, we’re in for a wild ride coming up.  Starting next studio album, there will be four  albums in a row with four different singers.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline metaldams




      Next Black Sabbath album is my favorite of the Dio fronted albums and another stone cold classic in my eyes, 1981’s MOB RULES.  Martin Birch again producing the album and new drummer Vinny Appice manning the drum kit.  Vinny is a very powerful, John Bonham style drummer who can do dynamic fills.  It’s funny because most people consider Black Sabbath a bigger influence on metal overall than Led Zeppelin and I agree.  However, in the drum department, I always thought Bonham influenced more metal drummers while Bill Ward had this uniqueness that was all his own and harder to duplicate.  I love both Bonham and Ward equally and Vinny adds that Bonham style thunder to the proceedings.  Again, like Dio replacing Ozzy, it’s a case of something is lost and gained at the same time.  Things are increasingly becoming less and less like the original line up and we will really see that more as the years progress.

      Minus the drummer change during the last tour, which was a big deal, things have been stable by 80’s Black Sabbath standards from the last entry.  HEAVEN AND HELL was a big commercial success, certainly more so than the last two albums with Ozzy.  Heavy metal in general is enjoying a resurgence and Black Sabbath are enjoying that wave.  I’m not sure if you’re aware of the early 80’s cult animated film HEAVY METAL.  Just before this album was released, an early recording of the title track was included on the soundtrack and if memory serves, I think the instrumental “E5150” was also included in the movie.  I say if memory serves because I haven’t seen it in thirty years, but this was definitely good exposure for the band.  Onto the track by track.

“Turn Up the Night” A good energetic track but you know what?  My lease favorite on the album.  Pretty unusual for the opening track to be the least favorite.  Still, if this is my version of the “worst,” then we’re in for a good ride.  A bit like “Neon Knights” for me.  I dig it, but a warm up for the monsters to come like….

“Voodoo”  Good God almighty.  Listen to that bloody riff that opens this thing.  Amazing.  More amazing when that driving rhythm section and then Dio’s vocals come in.  Dio sounds like a deity on top of a mountain singing to his disciples and I get chills when he sings, “So if a stranger calls you.”  A total classic, the volume knob always goes up when this song comes on.

“Sign of the Southern Cross”  Another total classic.  Starts out with some acoustic guitar from Iommi, some tasteful bass from Geezer and some beautiful singing from Dio.  Very delicate vocals, a nice showcase for the man.  Then it gets heavy with these epic, doomy chords and riffs.  Moody verses with Geezer doing these atmospheric bass effects underneath that eventually builds into an emotional chorus.  Epic heavy metal at its very best.

“E5150” An atmospheric keyboard and bass effect laden instrumental that is really cool, but maybe could have had one minute trimmed off.  Also used as the tour opener and leads to….

“The Mob Rules”  Do you know the scene in Citizen Kane when Charles Foster Kane’s wife leaves him and he’s breaking everything in the room?  That’s what I want to do every time I hear this song while letting out some insane primal screams.  Pure, energetic and sweet musical catharsis.  A highly energetic metal classic.

“Country Girl”  A lot of people knock this song.  They feel the lyrics don’t fit Black Sabbath.  Pfft.  Whatever.  They’re fine by me.  I love the riff, I love the groove, I love the vocals and the bridge is my favorite part.  Cool song.

“Slipping Away”  Not much to say other than this is a perfectly satisfying rocking song.  I love the vocal harmonies in the chorus and my favorite part is the solo section.  Love the way they trade off solo licks, even Geezer!

“Falling Off the Edge of the World”  With some stiff competition, my favorite song on the album and one of my favorite Sabbath songs ever.  Starts out mellow and Iommi does this really beautiful violin like effect on his guitar.  Another incredibly beautiful Dio vocal here. Then it goes into this slight doomy part before progressing to one of my favorite Black Sabbath riffs ever.  Amazingly heavy and musical.  When the rhythm section and Dio’s vocal go on top of it, I’m back in Charles Foster Kane mode.  Seriously, this song is a prime example as to why Dio is one of my favorite vocalists.  Pure beauty in the beginning, pure power towards the end. 

“Over and Over”  Another case of pure beauty.  This song stays mellow the whole time, some tasteful guitar riffs and rhythm section playing and Dio’s vocals almost bring me to tears.  So does Iommi’s lead playing towards the end, it gets really intense and emotional.  Classy and tasteful album closer for a band firing on all cylinders.  Too bad this line up won’t record another album together for eleven years.

Yup, Dio and Vinny leave after this album.  The reasons will be discussed in the next entry, which will be a live album entry similar to what we just had with Led Zeppelin, so you guys can take a casual breather.  Not quite as much live material as Zeppelin, but enough and I’m including an Ozzy Osbourne solo live album with belongs in the Sabbath discussion.  As for MOB RULES, probably my favorite heavy metal album of 1981, which is a big deal because this is one of the golden age years.  I say probably because Iron Maiden and old Ozzy himself also released classics this year, but today, I’m giving the nod to Sabbath.  Hope you guys like this one, most people prefer HEAVEN AND HELL, but I’m in the loud minority who calls himself a MOB RULES guy.  Like I previously said, the first of four consecutive Black Sabbath studio albums with four different vocalists.  You’ll be introduced to more legendary singers who have a lot more music to discover outside of Black Sabbath. 
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline Umbrella Sam

  • Toastmaster General
  • Knothead
  • *****
    • Talk About Cinema
Well, HEAVEN AND HELL really put my expectations up, so how does MOB RULES compare? Well, I think HEAVEN AND HELL felt a bit more groundbreaking and more memorable as a result, but there still is a lot to like about this one, with a few huge standouts.

“Turn Up the Night” starts off the album and, yeah, I agree, it’s probably my least favorite song here too. It’s fine, but it doesn’t really pull me in in the same way that “Neon Knights” does, it does feel a bit generic at times. “Voodoo” is an improvement. I especially love the section after Dio sings “because he’s voodoo” where everyone kind of does this downward transition into the guitar solo, I thought that was a really cool effect. The next track, “The Sign of the Southern Cross” is awesome. I love the acoustic opening as well as the chance to hear Dio singing in a more laid back style. The falsetto parts are cool and it does indeed transition naturally into a cool, darker riff. Very awesome, atmospheric song.

“E5150” is an OK instrumental. I like how it kind of has an underwater effect which gets cooler as the song goes along, but it does feel like it takes a while to get there and there’s not really a melody to speak of. The title track is another fun song; as usual, great guitar work and it moves at a good pace. “Country Girl” has a really catchy riff, and I also really loved the bridge section. The slower tone is a really cool change of pace and it has some really memorable backing vocals. I agree about the solos trading off on “Slipping Away”; hearing the bass taking part in something like this gives the song a unique feel to it as a result.

The last two tracks are my favorites, and among my favorite Sabbath tracks ever. “Falling Off the Edge of the World” is amazing. The opening with the violin effect is really cool and supported by some fantastic acoustic and keyboard work. The drums during the transition from lighter to heavier are especially awesome, they really feel like they’re building up to something special. Amazing riff throughout, among my favorites. And it closes with the slow, atmospheric “Over and Over”, with some powerful vocals from Dio and constantly shifting guitars. Much like “Heaven and Hell”, it has one of my favorite fadeouts on a Sabbath song; I’ll definitely have Dio singing “Over...and Over!” stuck in my head for a while.

So, yeah, another good album with a few select standouts that reach the same heights as HEAVEN AND HELL for me, and even some of the weaker stuff like “Turn Up the Night” and “E5150” is still fine. It’s sad that this is Dio’s last album for a while, because he really made such an immediate impression on me. Well, we’ll see if the next three singers can make the same impression, although if your comparison of them to Joe Besser has any truth to it...well, we’ll find out soon enough.
“I’ll take a milkshake...with sour milk!” -Shemp (Punchy Cowpunchers, 1950)

My blog: https://talk-about-cinema.blogspot.com


Offline metaldams

If you need a further Dio fix before we get to 1992’s DEHUMANIZER, his solo albums are worth exploring, especially HOLY DIVER.

As far as comparing Ian Gillan and Glenn Hughes, the next two Sabbath singers to Joe Besser - only in the sense their stunts with Sabbath were brief and they are more loved for other projects (think Besser as Stinky = Gillan with Deep Purple).

I actually saw both singers in concert, non Sabbath related within the past five years.  It kills me I never got to see Dio live.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline metaldams

….and it’s twelve years ago today that Dio passed.  I can’t believe it’s been that long.  It seems like yesterday when I saw the news online and let out a big, “Oh no,” likely followed by some four letter word. 

- Doug Sarnecky


Offline HomokHarcos

Another very enjoyable album, it's surprising Dio was only with them for two albums, before eventually returning. The style of the music and Dio's vocals give off a vibe that often is the first thing that comes to mind when I hear the words "metal music", along with Iron Maiden.

I thought "Turn up the Night" was a perfectly fine opener; it's a good introduction. "Voodoo" is a slower, paced song that really has the metal sound I associate with the 1980s. I like the fadeout with the guitar still playing.

"Sign of the Southern Cross" was my favorite song on the album, I love the opening section, and noticed Dio was using a different vocal style. The electric guitar section is just as good, and it whole song just sort of screams epic. "E5150" sounds like an industrial horror song that would fit right in the Silent Hill video games. "The Mob Rules", after listening to it, sounds like it would be great for an opening setlist. Really fast paced and gets you pumped up. "Country Girl" has a more mellow pace, I love the middle section of this song.

I agree about the last two tracks, both very strong. It feels like we got two power ballads in a row, which usually bring some of the highlights to an album.

When Dio died my uncle was pretty upset, he even recorded a cover of Rainbow's "Temple of the King" as a tribute. I know Holy Diver gets a lot of praise among metal fans.


Offline metaldams

There are four albums with Dio, the other two are spread out.  The last one is under the band name “Heaven and Hell” and is a Black Sabbath album in everything but name.  It will be discussed and I’ll mention the legal B.S. when the time comes.

If your uncle’s cover on “Temple of the King” is on YouTube, I’d love to hear it.  Great song.
- Doug Sarnecky