Topic: How did Columbia handle the Curly to Shemp change???

[3Stooges]

Does anyone know how Columbia handled the change from Curly to Shemp as the 3rd Stooge? Did they announce the change or did the audience sit down one day to watch Fright Night and say.."Hey, that's not Curly"

[Baggie]

I'm not totally sure, but I would have thought the latter. I can't have seen it being officially announced.

[falsealarms]

All I know is Columbia did not want Shemp as the third Stooge b/c he looked too much like Moe. But they allowed it because Moe threatened to quit if they didn't.

[xraffle]

That's an interesting question. I'm sure it was all over the newspapers.

[No, Roquefort]

If not Shemp, who did the studio have in mind as the 3rd Stooge?

[xraffle]

I don't think Columbia had anyone in mind yet, but they definitely didn't want Shemp. They were still deciding. That is why Moe suggested Shemp as the new 3rd stooge.

[Pilsner Panther]

I don't think Columbia had anyone in mind yet, but they definitely didn't want Shemp. They were still deciding. That is why Moe suggested Shemp as the new 3rd stooge.

There's an (unconfirmed) story that Buddy Hackett was being considered for the part, but he turned it down because he didn't want to do hard slapstick— he was afraid of getting injured. Too bad, because he would have made a much funnier Third Stooge than either Besser or DeRita did.

But not as funny as Shemp, needless to say.

[xraffle]

You're right. I never knew this. It's very interesting. I just found this at IMDB.

In 1952, at the behest of Shemp Howard, Hackett was asked to replace the ailing Curly Howard as a member of The Three Stooges. Hackett initially agreed to the idea, until he saw a Stooges rehearsal and witnessed the boys hitting each other on the head with pipes, wrenches, etc. Hackett backed out of the deal.

[kinderscenen]

I thought that was interesting--it makes sense, except for the fact that Hackett would've been so much younger than Moe and Larry. Granted, Joe De Rita was a bit younger, but I'm thinking that Buddy would've been 20 years younger. Of course, I'm pretty sure that whoever was going to be considered would've been employed by Columbia at one time or another.
(Of course, I could just look his age up....but what's the fun in that?!) 

[kinderscenen]

Reading Hackett's background, it doesn't sound that much different than De Rita's. It's too bad that the whole idea of "getting another Curly" may have changed things.

I still never understood the story about the whole "hitting with pipes." As a comedian, I would think that Hackett would've known that foam appliances were used, even if he wasn't that familiar with the Stooges.  Now, if he'd seen them on stage....that may have changed his mind--the fact that the slaps were real would be off-putting to most.

Sunday

[Dr. Belch]

There's an (unconfirmed) story that Buddy Hackett was being considered for the part, but he turned it down because he didn't want to do hard slapstick— he was afraid of getting injured.

I still never understood the story about the whole "hitting with pipes." As a comedian, I would think that Hackett would've known that foam appliances were used, even if he wasn't that familiar with the Stooges.  Now, if he'd seen them on stage....that may have changed his mind--the fact that the slaps were real would be off-putting to most.

True, but sometimes things went wrong with the props. For example, Moe actually fractured a couple of ribs on a breakway table that separated wrong. And during a pie fight the prop guys would scoop up the shaving cream mixture off the floor for another take, and it'd have dirt and hair and cigarette butts and mouse droppings and God knew what all mixed in there. Imagine taking a kisser full of that. Or worse--one poor actress, it seems, opened her mouth at the wrong time and got some "pie" gook caught in her throat. She needed medical attention there on the set to get it out.

I wonder if they considered any of the other stars they'd worked with over the years as third Stooge? Emil Sitka was too new at that point, and Eddie Laughton only had minor parts in a half dozen fims before his death (1952).   

[archiezappa]

I'm learning a lot of things that I never knew about the Stooges, lately.  First, that Joe Besser was fired, supposedly.  And now, they were gonna fire Shemp?  What madness!  Well, then again, in the Stooges biopic, they played Shemp like he didn't want to be a Stooge.  Go figure.

[BeAStooge]

I'm learning a lot of things that I never knew about the Stooges, lately.  First, that Joe Besser was fired, supposedly.  And now, they were gonna fire Shemp?  What madness!  Well, then again, in the Stooges biopic, they played Shemp like he didn't want to be a Stooge.  Go figure.

 - Joe Besser was not fired. He quit.

 - No one was going to fire Shemp.

 - The Stooge biopic was intentionally slanted to make Shemp look bad by a couple people involved in its production, who at the time were having a "disagreement" with Shemp's family.

 - The Buddy Hackett story is bullshit.  As Jules White told film fan/author/historian Jim Neibaur in an early '80s interview... "Hackett is full of it."  As Ed Bernds told me back in 1998, "That's a load of crap."  Hackett told stories; he was infamous for it... this is one of 'em.  He starred in one 1948 comedy-bowling instruction one-reeler for Jules White... possibly seeing the Stooges on the lot, that's the closest he came to being a Stooge.

[archiezappa]

Thanks for straightening this out, BeAStooge.  I'm glad that you're here.  You seem to have the lowdown on everything.

[curlysdame]

An interesting question.  I don't think I ever thought of that before.  I kind of agree with X; I believe that there were some small articles in newspapers saying that Shemp took over for Curly "due to illness."  It was certainly written that way for a personal appearance The Stooges made in January 1945, even though it was still a year before Curly's big stroke.  All four of them must've known that something wasn't right. (see One Fine Stooge p. 55).  There's one thing I find eerie, though, about the mentioned article:  apparently, it was dated Jan. 18th, 1945 - seven years to the day that Curly would pass away.

Thanks for clearing up that Hackett story, BeAStooge.  I had never heard that before, and I don't think I would've believed it, either.

[xraffle]

Wow, seeing this thread brings back a lot of memories. It shows our former moderator and my first account that was deleted.

Anyway, back to topic. Shemp was originally just supposed to temporarily replace Curly until he recovered. Unfortunately he didn't, so Shemp remained a stooge until his death.

[Dr. Belch]

The coming of Shemp was handled much better than the advent of Joe Besser, most certainly. Columbia would have been perfectly happy to fart out new films with just Moe and Larry, plus cuts of Shemp interspersed with celluloid showcases of Joe Palma's skill at body-doubling...but Moe wouldn't have it. I suppose his own ego, combined with the ghost of Curly's medical bills and Larry always being strapped for cash, drove him to keep going...maybe he told himself, "Babe and Shemp would've wanted it this way." If Columbia had their way, here's my vision of what we'd have seen in our local theater, c. 1958:

The Three Stooges
"Dipshit Diplomats"
Open with thirty seconds of new footage of rich snobby people at a garden party. One talks to another about recently hiring a trio of paperhangers.

Stock footage of Curly and Larry wallpapering Moe into the wall from "A Bird in the Head" (Curly is replaced with judicious fake Shemping) and Shemp and Larry doing the same from "Jerks of All Trades". Then, stock footage of them bashing Moe headfirst through drywall from "Listen, Judge".

Snooty lady come in and sees the damage, then screams. Cut to the exterior of the house where the boys--played by body doubles seen from a distance--crash the garden party while hightailing it out of there. Inexplicably the rich snobs decide these three would be perfect for a diplomatic mission to Saudi Arabia no one in their right mind would take.

The diplomatic training begins with stock cuts of the dance training scene in "Hoi Polloi", with a fake Shemp replacing all Curly's scenes right up to the point where the instructor gets a fly down her cleavage and leaps out the window, Stooges following after.

Cut to the boys in Saudi Arabia, using all desert-themed stock footage: the taxi crossing the ocean scene from "We Want Our Mummy", the Santa Claus gag from "Wee Wee Monsieur", a few cuts from "Malice in the Palice and "Three Arabian Nuts", a new bridge, 20 to 30 seconds long with some goober--the Saudi dictator who's causing all the trouble (insert some bizarre Middle Eastern monicker here) and threatening the interests of those rich folks back home. He tires of the boys' foolishness and launches a missile at them. Place shot of Stooges riding missile from "Boobs In Arms"  here. In the last scene the snooty rich folks, including their ex-employer, are lounging around the garden laughing at their cleverness...when three stuffed dummies (that missile's got a hell of a range, I'll tell you what, and damn precise too) crash down on them.    END.

There, I just wrote a Stooges script that has not one new scene with the Stooges in it. Should I be proud or horrified with myself?

[archiezappa]

The coming of Shemp was handled much better than the advent of Joe Besser, most certainly. Columbia would have been perfectly happy to fart out new films with just Moe and Larry, plus cuts of Shemp interspersed with celluloid showcases of Joe Palma's skill at body-doubling...but Moe wouldn't have it. I suppose his own ego, combined with the ghost of Curly's medical bills and Larry always being strapped for cash, drove him to keep going...maybe he told himself, "Babe and Shemp would've wanted it this way." If Columbia had their way, here's my vision of what we'd have seen in our local theater, c. 1958:

The Three Stooges
"Dipshit Diplomats"
Open with thirty seconds of new footage of rich snobby people at a garden party. One talks to another about recently hiring a trio of paperhangers.

Stock footage of Curly and Larry wallpapering Moe into the wall from "A Bird in the Head" (Curly is replaced with judicious fake Shemping) and Shemp and Larry doing the same from "Jerks of All Trades". Then, stock footage of them bashing Moe headfirst through drywall from "Listen, Judge".

Snooty lady come in and sees the damage, then screams. Cut to the exterior of the house where the boys--played by body doubles seen from a distance--crash the garden party while hightailing it out of there. Inexplicably the rich snobs decide these three would be perfect for a diplomatic mission to Saudi Arabia no one in their right mind would take.

The diplomatic training begins with stock cuts of the dance training scene in "Hoi Polloi", with a fake Shemp replacing all Curly's scenes right up to the point where the instructor gets a fly down her cleavage and leaps out the window, Stooges following after.

Cut to the boys in Saudi Arabia, using all desert-themed stock footage: the taxi crossing the ocean scene from "We Want Our Mummy", the Santa Claus gag from "Wee Wee Monsieur", a few cuts from "Malice in the Palice and "Three Arabian Nuts", a new bridge, 20 to 30 seconds long with some goober--the Saudi dictator who's causing all the trouble (insert some bizarre Middle Eastern monicker here) and threatening the interests of those rich folks back home. He tires of the boys' foolishness and launches a missile at them. Place shot of Stooges riding missile from "Boobs In Arms"  here. In the last scene the snooty rich folks, including their ex-employer, are lounging around the garden laughing at their cleverness...when three stuffed dummies (that missile's got a hell of a range, I'll tell you what, and damn precise too) crash down on them.    END.

There, I just wrote a Stooges script that has not one new scene with the Stooges in it. Should I be proud or horrified with myself?

Are you sure you're not related to Jules White? 

[Giff me dat fill-em!]

The coming of Shemp was handled much better than the advent of Joe Besser, most certainly. Columbia would have been perfectly happy to fart out new films with just Moe and Larry, plus cuts of Shemp interspersed with celluloid showcases of Joe Palma's skill at body-doubling...but Moe wouldn't have it. I suppose his own ego, combined with the ghost of Curly's medical bills and Larry always being strapped for cash, drove him to keep going...maybe he told himself, "Babe and Shemp would've wanted it this way." If Columbia had their way, here's my vision of what we'd have seen in our local theater, c. 1958:

The Three Stooges
"Dipshit Diplomats"
Open with thirty seconds of new footage of rich snobby people at a garden party. One talks to another about recently hiring a trio of paperhangers.

Stock footage of Curly and Larry wallpapering Moe into the wall from "A Bird in the Head" (Curly is replaced with judicious fake Shemping) and Shemp and Larry doing the same from "Jerks of All Trades". Then, stock footage of them bashing Moe headfirst through drywall from "Listen, Judge".

Snooty lady come in and sees the damage, then screams. Cut to the exterior of the house where the boys--played by body doubles seen from a distance--crash the garden party while hightailing it out of there. Inexplicably the rich snobs decide these three would be perfect for a diplomatic mission to Saudi Arabia no one in their right mind would take.

The diplomatic training begins with stock cuts of the dance training scene in "Hoi Polloi", with a fake Shemp replacing all Curly's scenes right up to the point where the instructor gets a fly down her cleavage and leaps out the window, Stooges following after.

Cut to the boys in Saudi Arabia, using all desert-themed stock footage: the taxi crossing the ocean scene from "We Want Our Mummy", the Santa Claus gag from "Wee Wee Monsieur", a few cuts from "Malice in the Palice and "Three Arabian Nuts", a new bridge, 20 to 30 seconds long with some goober--the Saudi dictator who's causing all the trouble (insert some bizarre Middle Eastern monicker here) and threatening the interests of those rich folks back home. He tires of the boys' foolishness and launches a missile at them. Place shot of Stooges riding missile from "Boobs In Arms"  here. In the last scene the snooty rich folks, including their ex-employer, are lounging around the garden laughing at their cleverness...when three stuffed dummies (that missile's got a hell of a range, I'll tell you what, and damn precise too) crash down on them.    END.

There, I just wrote a Stooges script that has not one new scene with the Stooges in it. Should I be proud or horrified with myself?

Nice work, a fanciful foray into the realm of Stoogedom ...
But I don't think Columbia would have been perfectly happy to fart out new films with just Moe and Larry ... just ask Harry Cohn. (I'm paying for THREE Stooges, not two!!)

[Hammond Eggar]

I own a copy of Moe Howard's autobiogaphy, Moe Howard and the 3 Stooges.  It's been years since I last read it cover-to-cover, so maybe someone here can clarify something for me.  I seem to recall Moe stating that, after Shemp passed away, he and Larry suggested to Columbia that they continue on as the 2 Stooges.  Columbia, of course, disagreed with that idea.  How much truth is there to this statement?  It seems that this is one of those books which fans have sited as having lots of inaccuracies, even though it was Moe's autobiography.

[JazzBill]

I own a copy of Moe Howard's autobiogaphy, Moe Howard and the 3 Stooges.  It's been years since I last read it cover-to-cover, so maybe someone here can clarify something for me.  I seem to recall Moe stating that, after Shemp passed away, he and Larry suggested to Columbia that they continue on as the 2 Stooges.  Columbia, of course, disagreed with that idea.  How much truth is there to this statement?  It seems that this is one of those books which fans have sited as having lots of inaccuracies, even though it was Moe's autobiography.

I haven't read the book in a while either, but I remember that some of the book didn't seem right to me either. Mostly towards the end. I do believe that Moe died before the book was completely finished, and that Norman Maurer might have put the finishing touches on it. What usually happens when I don't research a question carefully, someone will come back and correct me. Rightfully so, of coarse. But I do agree that some of the book didn't match some of stories that I heard.

[xraffle]

I own a copy of Moe Howard's autobiogaphy, Moe Howard and the 3 Stooges.  It's been years since I last read it cover-to-cover, so maybe someone here can clarify something for me.  I seem to recall Moe stating that, after Shemp passed away, he and Larry suggested to Columbia that they continue on as the 2 Stooges.  Columbia, of course, disagreed with that idea.  How much truth is there to this statement?  It seems that this is one of those books which fans have sited as having lots of inaccuracies, even though it was Moe's autobiography.

Yeah, I've read that there too. I believe they said the same thing on the A&E biography video if I remember correctly.

[Dr. Belch]

Of course, one must remember that many of the interviews were conducted and the books  written when the surviving Stooges were well into their sixties, so one must allow for some gaps in the old memory. Plus Shemp and Curly weren't around to drop in their two cents...we still don't know the name of Curly's first wife, even after all these years--fear of family scandal, they say. I wonder if she or her kids (if she ever had any) ever came forth and demanded a cut of the Stooge pie?     

[curlysdame]

...we still don't know the name of Curly's first wife, even after all these years--fear of family scandal, they say. I wonder if she or her kids (if she ever had any) ever came forth and demanded a cut of the Stooge pie?     

We 'sointenly' do; her name was Julia Rosenthal.  There's a 4 page article on it in The Three Stooges Journal, issue #76 (see the Journal index section of the site).  The info that we know now, it makes perfect sense to me why the Horwitz family (mostly Jennie, I'm assuming) would say Jerry's marriage would've been annuled.  The Horwitz family was very orthodox, and a divorce within the orthodox community back then (and now, too, probably) was definitely frowned upon.  Also, Jennie had made quite a career for herself in real estate, and was well known/respected in the general community; she had a reputation to maintain.  Divorce was something you just didn't do in those days, so in order to avoid any kind of scandal, Jerry's divorce was swept under the rug, and passed off as an annulment.

I, too, have wondered what happened after the divorce.  I heard Jerry was really nuts about his first wife, so what really went wrong between them?  Did he ever see/hear from her again?  It really makes one curious.     

[FineBari3]

I, too, have wondered what happened after the divorce.  I heard Jerry was really nuts about his first wife, so what really went wrong between them?  Did he ever see/hear from her again?  It really makes one curious.     

What a terrible thing to have happen! It must have torn poor Jerry apart!  I'm sure it had an effect on his emotions from then on. His mother sure had a hold of him, if you have read the stories in the books. I really do not know the "Curly" book well, but I know there is a part where a psychologist gives insight to Jerry's psyche. I think I might re-read that part today!

I sure can understand the scandal of that back then; things like this can still go on today in some circles. Things like divorce and having children born out of wedlock are not a big deal to a lot of people. My step-brother just had an illegitimate child, and my mother, who is very old-fashioned, is very embarassed.