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Punch Drunks (1934)

metaldams · 69 · 36792

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Offline Samurai

I'm about to repeat something I seem to say often around these here parts, but I have always loved this short. Most of the reasons have already been shared, but I must admit I have never properly said the word balance since I was 8....and it's all Larry's fault.

Another favorite moment was unintended, but always made me loff. When Curly is on the bumper and Larry starts playing weasel, the side flaps on Curly's cap start flapping in the breeze as his KO strength kicks in. It's such a perfect cartoon-like moment.

I also love the B story of Houseman dealing with the kid, especially his 'I just sucked on a lemon' face.

Finally, how frickin' cute is Dorothy Granger in this? I would have gladly offered to help dry her soggy bottom after Moe doused Larry pre-fight...and got Dorothy with some collateral water damage.


Offline Umbday


Finally, how frickin' cute is Dorothy Granger in this?

Dude, you read my mind.
In this most recent viewing of Punch Drunks, I was reminded of Dorothy's qualities as a screen actor. She was good, and funny. Lots of screen credits, too — though as often as not, those roles are un-credited ones. She's a little hard to see, and one must seek her movie out. Well worth doing, though.


Offline NoahYoung

Count me in as a Dorothy Granger fan! Besides her other great assets, she also had a great resume. She turns up as late as the 50s in at least one episode of THE ABBOTT AND COSTELLO SHOW, and she still looked great! Va va va VOOM!

When you watch her in Charley Chase's THE PIP FROM PITTSBURG with Thelma Todd, it sets up some good Ginger/Maryanne debates! >:D


She survived until 1995, but I'm surprised that I can't find any video interviews with her.

Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline Samurai

When you watch her in Charley Chase's THE PIP FROM PITTSBURG with Thelma Todd, it sets up some good Ginger/Maryanne debates! >:D
Mary Ann from day one! (and that's a lot o'frickin days!)

When I was younger, I might have gone with Thelma for a few years, but the vast majority of the time, it's all Dorothy. It took me a while to appreciate a large heiny.


Offline NoahYoung

Mary Ann from day one! (and that's a lot o'frickin days!)

When I was younger, I might have gone with Thelma for a few years, but the vast majority of the time, it's all Dorothy. It took me a while to appreciate a large heiny.

Early on it was Ginger for me, then it became Mary Anne. It used to be Chrissy for me, then it became Janet. First Farrah, then Jaclyn or Kate, but then Cheryl (when she joined the show) even until now. I think I'm still on the fence about Thelma vs Dorothy, though. Dorothy kind of flew under the radar back then and even now.

Kinda sad, but a lot of actors and actresses become legendary because they die young. Not that they weren't talented, though. Take Kim Novak, for example. She's still with us, but she should be just as legendary and iconic as Marilyn Monroe, but she's not. Back in the 50s and early 60s, I would have chosen Kim over Marilyn.

Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline metaldams

Dorothy was definitely nice looking. I think she was about 18 or so when she started at Roach and not that much older here.  Margaret Dumont in THE COCOANUTS is age appropriate for me at this point.  [pie]. So is talkie era Mae Busch.  Twenty years ago, no way I’d notice her more than Thelma or Dorothy, but time’s a strange bird.

Speaking of Dorothy’s heiny, it was her’s Stan was checking out in HOG WILD while distracted driving.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline NoahYoung

Dorothy was definitely nice looking. I think she was about 18 or so when she started at Roach and not that much older here.  Margaret Dumont in THE COCOANUTS is age appropriate for me at this point.  [pie]. So is talkie era Mae Busch.  Twenty years ago, no way I’d notice her more than Thelma or Dorothy, but time’s a strange bird.

Speaking of Dorothy’s heiny, it was her’s Stan was checking out in HOG WILD while distracted driving.

Actually, it was her legs. She shows them off in THE DENTIST, too, and boy does W.C. Fields notice.
Dorothy: "My doctor says I have a very bad leg."
Fields: "Your doctor is nuts!"

And it is rather fortunate it wasn't a Newfoundland dog that bit her.

She plays Billy Gilbert's wife (Ethel) in THE CHIMP in a photo, but Martha Sleeper plays the wife when she shows up. Could never figure that one out.

BTW, Dorothy Granger had an 8mm Blackhawk films copy of the L-H MURDER CASE later in her life!
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline GreenCanaries

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She plays Billy Gilbert's wife (Ethel) in THE CHIMP in a photo, but Martha Sleeper plays the wife when she shows up. Could never figure that one out.

The Sleeper credit is actually incorrect. It's Dorothy all the way through.
"With oranges, it's much harder..."


Offline NoahYoung

The Sleeper credit is actually incorrect. It's Dorothy all the way through.

Hmmmm...you may be right. I just had another look at the end of THE CHIMP. It definitely isn't Martha Sleeper. It could be Dorothy Granger -- you do get a good look at her face. I think it's the make-up and hat that makes her look slightly different. I've been watching this film for 50 years -- and early on (in the 70s) I wasn't that familiar with Dorothy other than the name. She does tend to look different in just the span of 2 years from 1930 to 1932. She looks totally different in HOG WILD as opposed to THE DENTIST. Not sure why the L&H "scholars" in their books would perpetrate misinformation though.

The power of suggestion strikes again.

Wikipedia (which is infallible) lists Sleeper in THE CHIMP and not Dorothy. It also says that in 1932 Sleeper was a hit in the PYGMALION stage play. It also says she left Roach Studio in 1927. Dorothy continued in shorts for most of her career. So based on that alone, it is very probable that it is Dorothy in THE CHIMP, and definitely not Sleeper.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline NoahYoung

OK, the McCabe/Kilgore/Bann book from 1975 says it's Martha Sleeper in the role, and Dorothy Granger in the picture. Since I got that book when it came out, that makes 50 years (until now) that I thought it was Sleeper in the film.

The L&H Encyclopedia from 1995 says the same thing.

Randy Skretvedt doesn't mention either actress in the first edition of his book for that short. I just read the other day via googling that he spoke to Dorothy Granger a lot -- I'd be curious to see what he has to say. Anyone have later editions of his book?

BTW, sometime this century I remember reading that the McCabe/Kilgore/Bann book was being republished in a deluxe edition with lots more stills. It was quite expensive, so I never "pledged". Not sure if they ever got enough money. The reason I bring it up is because I remember reading that McCabe insisted in his will or something that the text should never be changed, even to correct errors. That is plain stupid -- especially if the new edition perpetuated the lie that Martha Sleeper was in THE CHIMP.

thnx
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline Samurai

OK, the McCabe/Kilgore/Bann book from 1975 says it's Martha Sleeper in the role, and Dorothy Granger in the picture. Since I got that book when it came out, that makes 50 years (until now) that I thought it was Sleeper in the film.
These may help...or add to the confusion.  :P


Offline Samurai

Sorry...2 more:

The body of the actress is definitely Dorothyish, but the face seems a bit different. Oh well, being 100% sure is kinda boring.


Offline NoahYoung

Sorry...2 more:

The body of the actress is definitely Dorothyish, but the face seems a bit different. Oh well, being 100% sure is kinda boring.

Yea, I was looking at this scene on youtube yesterday, and it just doesn't look enough like Dorothy to me. It doesn't look anything like Martha Sleeper.

I've seen Sleeper in a few Charley Chase shorts, but she never made too much of impression on me that I really remembered her face. So I never paid much attention in THE CHIMP to see if it was her -- until yesterday.

I think Dorothy Granger is gorgeous, and the actress in THE CHIMP isn't gorgeous. Pretty perhaps, but not gorgeous like Dorothy.

Now why would McCabe/Kilgore/Bann say it was Martha Sleeper? Bann was supposed to be the one in charge of filmography details. He's written voluminously on minor production details. I just took a look at The Laurel & Hardy Book on my shelf, edited by Leonard Maltin, and the filmography is by Bann. It says the same thing -- Sleeper playing the role, but pic shown is Dorothy.

Hmmmm...

Why would Bann claim it's not Dorothy, unless he had info we don't?  For him to say it was Sleeper, he would have to have info that says it was, because from looking at the film it is not her. (But I don't care what info he has/had -- it is not Martha Sleeper.)

I was trying to figure out if Dorothy was still under contract at Roach when THE CHIMP was filmed. Couldn't find anything definitive, but the incomplete filmographies around the web indicate to me that she didn't appear in any more Roach shorts after 1931, the year she appeared in ONE GOOD TURN.

So let's turn /back the clock to 1932. Why would the Roach studio use a pic of Dorothy and a different actress to play the role? Maybe Dorothy was slated for the role, but then left the studio and they needed an actress that looked like her. Why though? They didn't want to take a portrait of the other actress? Makes no sense.

We need more data.
Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline NoahYoung

more data
1931 and 1932

Unmistakably Dorothy in every pic in the past few posts -- except those from THE CHIMP (but of course the portrait Billy Gilbert holds is also unmistakably Dorothy). I could be wrong. Who knows?

Randy has a "Who's who?" chapter at the end of his book (first edition), and the entry on Dorothy says she appeared in HOG WILD, ONE GOOD TURN, and the L-H MURDER CASE.

Here, Randy comments on this webpage about Dorothy: https://www.catsafterme.com/blog/archives/4430

"She’s best known in L&H circles for her two roles in “Hog Wild” (I think I was the first person she told that she was also the girl navigating the mud puddle) and her appearance in “L-H Murder Case,” ..."

He spoke with her a lot. She mentions HOG WILD and that she was the girl Stan stares at. Curious if he ever asked her about THE CHIMP. You think she would have mentioned something about having her pic in THE CHIMP but not appearing in it. Unless she did appear in it.

Again, she lived until 1995. Authors of film books talked to her. She told Film Fan Monthly (magazine published by a very young Leonard Maltin) that she had an 8mm print of L-H MURDER CASE. She wasn't a recluse who disappeared from the scene. Film Fan Monthly also published her filmography in 1969. I assume she saw it. If it didn't list THE CHIMP, wouldn't she have corrected it? I assume it didn't list it, since Maltin said she wasn't in it in The Laurel & Hardy Book. Did she correct them, and nobody bothered to change it? If she talked to all these authors, it would be safe to assume she read at least the parts of the books pertaining to her. But she never said, "Hey, that was me in THE CHIMP."

Another quote from that website above:

"Dorothy was my father’s first cousin, as their fathers were brothers (hers was Guy and my father’s was Earl). We visted her many times in Santa Monica. Her apartment was filled with movie memorabilia and mink coats! she still loved being a “star.” I am trying to do a Granger geneology and would love hear from Joyce and Bill to see if they have any information. "

She doesn't sound like she was trying to forget about her career. I doubt she would have forgotten being in THE CHIMP.


Perhaps GreenCanaries can give us his source.

Burt Lancaster was too short!
- The Birdman of Alcatraz


Offline hiramhorwitz

Count me in as a Dorothy Granger fan!

She survived until 1995, but I'm surprised that I can't find any video interviews with her.

Here's a later image of her, possibly taken at a Sons of the Desert meeting.


Offline Paul Pain

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Dorothy was definitely nice looking. I think she was about 18 or so when she started at Roach and not that much older here.  Margaret Dumont in THE COCOANUTS is age appropriate for me at this point.  [pie]. So is talkie era Mae Busch.  Twenty years ago, no way I’d notice her more than Thelma or Dorothy, but time’s a strange bird.

Speaking of Dorothy’s heiny, it was her’s Stan was checking out in HOG WILD while distracted driving.

I don't know where this "Karma" feature came from, but I couldn't resist smiting you, Doug.  [pie]
Something about income tacks season...


Offline Dr. Mabuse

"I'm in a terrible dilemma."


Offline Samurai

"I'm in a terrible dilemma."
Moe always expressed regret that he didn't know the difference between a prototype Yugo and a '34 Plymouth.  :P


Offline Big Chief Apumtagribonitz

I don't remember ever spending this much space on this site comparing women's behinds.  I'm proud of everyone.