Topic: The Pope

[Robbie883]

I'd like to hear what you think about all the pope tv time now that hes died.

[Dunrobin]

I'd like to hear what you think about all the pope tv time now that hes died.

What TV time?  I knew that he had died, as I saw the announcements on the Internet news sites, but I don't watch TV news (except occasionally for the local weather when I wake up in the morning.  Even then, if they told me the sky is blue I'd still look out the window to make sure.)  I don't trust them for anything, anymore, so I don't pay attention to them.  They can blather on about whatever they want, as long as I don't have to watch.

Hell, the Daily Show With Jon Stewart on the Comedy Channel is more relevent than the so-called news media.

[Idiorythmic]

Hell, the Daily Show With Jon Stewart on the Comedy Channel is more relevent than the so-called news media.

Heh heh, I saw Jon Stewart at the Detroit Opera last night.  (he wasn't singing)  There was one remark about the pope, something to the effect that the pope should be thanked for doing us all a favor:  he gave the news media something else to blather on about besides the Terry Shciavo case.  (he then launched into a hilarious diatribe about how the media likes to do a lot of this:

 

[Curly Q. Link]

I never understood why they glorify the pope so much. Hes just a man like everyone else. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Lola-Lou]

Okay! Here's something I thought was wierd. I'm just a heathen (No! That's not the wierd part!) so maybe someone can clear this up for me. I was flipping channels on my non-cable tv and came across news coverage of the pope's "worsening condition". It said that for the pope to be officially (religiously) dead they hit him on the head with a small gold hammer three times and call his Catholic name. If he dosen't answer, then he has split, heading for that big funny pope hat in the sky. IS THIS TRUE?!  Please help a poor, misguided heathen, who probably misheard the ramblings of network news, to wrap her brain around this.

[Idiorythmic]

...for the pope to be officially (religiously) dead they hit him on the head with a small gold hammer three times and call his Catholic name. If he dosen't answer, then he has split, heading for that big funny pope hat in the sky. IS THIS TRUE?!  Please help a poor, misguided heathen, who probably misheard the ramblings of network news, to wrap her brain around this.

I am certainly no expert, but I would guess that they use an official medical examiner just as would be done in the case of any other high profile decedent.  The bit about the hammer is just a quiant traditional holdover from medieval practices.  That's one thing I love about the religions:  they have so many of these wonderful little rituals that add some character to life events.

[Lola-Lou]

I just hope someone has the good grace to flog me on the head with a gold hammer when I die. HEY WATCH IT! I'M NOT DEAD YET!

[jrvass]

I heard the same thing on Fox News. I'm not a Catholic theologian but I imagine the 3 taps with the hammer predates the "wake" and stand for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Wakes of a few days came about because people would "seem" dead, and then wake-up! The most recent example I remember was http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6954586/, about 2 months ago.

Once an embalmer gets a hold of you... ya ain't coming back to life!

James

[Larrysgirl]

(Coming back after a lonngg lurk)    Being a Catholic myself, I was saddened by the news.  The pope had done so much to try to bring people together.  I really don't envy whoever is chosen next...he has some pretty big shoes to fill!
BTW, I had heard (or is it hoid) that they don't use a hammer, a cardinal comes over and simply 'asks' the pope three times if he's still among the living.  IF he gets no answer, then 'officially' he is dead.

[Pilsner Panther]

Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Lennon/McCartney

Lyrics:
Joan was quizzical, studied pataphysical
Science in the home
Late nights all alone with her a test tube
Oh, oh, oh, oh
Maxwell Edison, majoring in medicine
Calls her on the phone
"Can I take you out to the pictures Jo-o-o-oan?"
But as she's getting ready to go
A knock comes on the door

Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer
came down upon her head
Clang! Clang! Maxwell's silver hammer
made sure that she was dead

Back in school again Maxwell plays the fool again
Teacher gets annoyed
Wishing to avoid and unpleasant scene-e-e-ene
She tells Max to stay when the class has gone away
So he waits behind
Writing fifty times "I must not be so-o-o-o
But when she turns her back on the boy
He creeps up from behind

Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer
came down upon her head
Clang! Clang! Maxwell's silver hammer
made sure that she was dead

P.C. thirty one said "we've caught a dirty one"
Maxwell stands alone
Painting testimonial pictures, oh, oh, oh, oh
Rose and Valerie screaming from the gallery
Say he must go free
The judge does not agree, and he tells them so-o-o-o
But, as the words are leaving his lips
A noise comes form behind

Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer
came down upon her head
Clang! Clang! Maxwell's silver hammer
made sure that he was dead

© 1969 Northern Songs. All Rights Reserved. International Copyright Secured.

I'm not Catholic either, although I spent two miserable years in an all-boys Catholic prep school. I prefer to remember John Paul as he was in his prime, leaping into action to fight sin wherever it reared its ugly head— we now take you to the Vatcave, deep beneath St. Peter's Basilica; a secret lair otherwise known only to Alfred, his butler, and Robin the Boy Cardinal...

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Pilsner Panther]

While we're on the subject, what was all that business about "praying for the Pope?" The New York Times (April 4th) has a whole special section of photos devoted to it. Even though I was subjected to a couple of years of Catholic indoctrination, I can't figure this out.

I mean, if anyone has a valid "backstage pass" to the afterlife, it's him, right? So why does he need anyone's prayers when he's on his deathbed?

Not only that, but some Vatican official was quoted as saying, "Christ has opened the doors for him." So, now Christ has been demoted to heavenly doorman? I thought that was St. Peter's job, so what happened to him?

 

Oh, well, I've never, ever been able to understand either religious belief or (especially) the believers; they're not big on logic, that's all I can say. The only thing I ever wanted from my Christian "educators" was that they show me where the nearest exit was, and pronto. By sheer luck, I managed to get away from them at the age of 16, and I've never looked back.

 

[Robbie883]

That is interesting Panther, but I always thought that they were just saying goodbye to the Pope not praying to god to allow him to heaven? Because like you said, if anyone has a garenteed spot its definately him

[Christine McIntyre]

I was raised Catholic (though I'm not one now).  If you want to be a real stickler for Catholic rules, nobody, not even the Pope, is guaranteed a spot in heaven immediately after death, because everyone is presumed to have some sins yet to be atoned for in purgatory.  So yes, you will see many prayers (rosaries and masses especially) being said for the Pope.

The only people the Catholic church guarantees to be in heaven are those people  declared to be saints by the lengthy process of canonization.  The Pope makes the final call.  Some popes have been declared to be saints, but not all.

As for the silver hammer...as I understand it, the practice of striking the dead pope's forehead with it to confirm his death was probably abolished after Pope Paul VI.  They do call his name three times, and  they do use the silver hammer to smash up the Pope's ring ( with his papal seal) after his death as it is a symbol of his unique authority and it could prevent attempts at forgery. 

[Pilsner Panther]

I was raised Catholic (though I'm not one now).  If you want to be a real stickler for Catholic rules, nobody, not even the Pope, is guaranteed a spot in heaven immediately after death, because everyone is presumed to have some sins yet to be atoned for in purgatory.  So yes, you will see many prayers (rosaries and masses especially) being said for the Pope.

The only people the Catholic church guarantees to be in heaven are those people  declared to be saints by the lengthy process of canonization.  The Pope makes the final call.  Some popes have been declared to be saints, but not all.

As for the silver hammer...as I understand it, the practice of striking the dead pope's forehead with it to confirm his death was probably abolished after Pope Paul VI.  They do call his name three times, and  they do use the silver hammer to smash up the Pope's ring ( with his papal seal) after his death as it is a symbol of his unique authority and it could prevent attempts at forgery. 

I'm probably getting in over my head here, theologically speaking, but if I remember right, there's no mention at all of Purgatory in the Bible. The Catholic belief in Purgatory was one of the causes of the Protestant reformation, because Martin Luther felt that the Catholic clergy was being corrupt and blasphemous by taking money to get the departed out of Purgatory by praying for them (this was called "selling indulgences").

On a sort-of-related topic, watching some of the coverage of the pope's lying-in-state, it struck me that there's something barbaric about the way this is being done. I mean, they've got him laid out without even a casket (which makes him look like he's having a nap), and they're parading the corpse around like a side of beef on a buffet table. This doesn't seem very dignified to me, and it made me think that when I go, what I want is immediate cremation, no ceremonies. Then my survivors can mix the ashes with a bottle of Guinness, take my mortal remains for a ride on the Staten Island Ferry, and dump the whole mess over the side.

I'll leave them some money to party with, afterwards...

[garystooge]

This thread is getting way too serious for a Stooges board….it’s time to lighten things up with a Pope joke:

The clerics of world’s great religions gather at a conference to determine which religion is truly the greatest. After weeks of squabbling, they are hopelessly deadlocked and unable to come to a decision, so they decide to hold a golf tournament with the winner being declared the world’s greatest religion.

After several rounds of playoffs, the final match comes down to the Catholics vs. the Jews. The Pope is quite desperate to win at all costs, so he calls his friend Jack Nicklaus and asks him to play in the final match. “But Pope, I’m not even Catholic” Nicklaus says. The Pope responds, “Don’t worry about it, I’ll make you a Cardinal”. So he makes Nicklaus a Cardinal and sends him off to play in the finals.

A few days later, the Pope gets a call from Nicklaus. “Well, what happened?” asks the Pope.  “I’m really sorry Pope, but I lost the match”. The Pope cries, “You lost? How is that possible?”  “Well, my opponent was really tough”, Nicklaus answers. “Your opponent was tough? Who was it?” asks the Pope.  Nicklaus responds, “Rabbi Tiger Woods”.

[jrvass]

I wonder...

1. If the number of priests has dropped almost 25% in the US in the past 20 years, how soon will the numbers rise as the priests are released from prison for child molestation?

2. If one is supposed to donate 10% of their income as a tithe to the church, is that before or after income taxes?

 

James

[Christine McIntyre]

I'm probably getting in over my head here, theologically speaking, but if I remember right, there's no mention at all of Purgatory in the Bible. The Catholic belief in Purgatory was one of the causes of the Protestant reformation, because Martin Luther felt that the Catholic clergy was being corrupt and blasphemous by taking money to get the departed out of Purgatory by praying for them (this was called "selling indulgences").

On a sort-of-related topic, watching some of the coverage of the pope's lying-in-state, it struck me that there's something barbaric about the way this is being done. I mean, they've got him laid out without even a casket (which makes him look like he's having a nap), and they're parading the corpse around like a side of beef on a buffet table. This doesn't seem very dignified to me, and it made me think that when I go, what I want is immediate cremation, no ceremonies. Then my survivors can mix the ashes with a bottle of Guinness, take my mortal remains for a ride on the Staten Island Ferry, and dump the whole mess over the side.

I'll leave them some money to party with, afterwards...

Well said, Pils... that's why Martin Luther is one of my favorite historical figures!  And interestingly, the Jewish faith (to which the Stooges belonged, of course), would never have corpses laid out for display, much less paraded around.  It's all "dust to dust" with them, and I must say that I agree.  If the Stooges were morticians, their "super service" would have you six feet under within 24 hours.

By the way, Garystooge, great pope joke! 

[Lola-Lou]

WOW! I had no idea my inquiry would cause such stirring discussion! Thanks guys!

[Senorita Rita]

My reaction to the pope's death  is similar to my reaction to Regan's death: not too familiar with the man's career, clueless as to why its such a big deal, but somehow the media has compelled me to care. But the parading of the corpse is too much. 
It seems like JPII was a decent man, though some of his beliefs were ridiculously out of date and retroactive.

I went to Catholic school for 11 years, and to this day I'm not sure what "The Pope" does. Then again, being a non-Catholic, I guess I was too heathenous to fully understand his power, even if the various nuns and priests had  let me in on their papal secrets. Now that I think of it, they wouldn't even give me a cracker during communion at mass.

[Pilsner Panther]

My reaction to the pope's death  is similar to my reaction to Regan's death: not too familiar with the man's career, clueless as to why its such a big deal, but somehow the media has compelled me to care. But the parading of the corpse is too much. 
It seems like JPII was a decent man, though some of his beliefs were ridiculously out of date and retroactive.

I went to Catholic school for 11 years, and to this day I'm not sure what "The Pope" does. Then again, being a non-Catholic, I guess I was too heathenous to fully understand his power, even if the various nuns and priests had  let me in on their papal secrets. Now that I think of it, they wouldn't even give me a cracker during communion at mass.

I had a similar thought about the Pope and Reagan; if you ask me, the media coverage was way overblown in both cases. Also, they're both given major credit for the collapse of Soviet communism, but ther roles were more symbolic than anything else. The U.S.S.R. collapsed from within, and it had been on the skids economically for years. I can remember, as a kid, seeing news photos of Soviet department stores and supermarkets, which looked just like ours— except that the shelves were almost empty, and there were long lines for the few goods they did have. No political/economic system that's in such bad shape is going to be able to sustain itself for long. So even with or without Reagan or JPII, the Soviet government would have fallen anyway, sooner or later.

As to what the Pope actually does, he steers the church from a doctrinal point of view; if you get a progressive-minded one like John XXIII (1950's-60's), then you get some reform and modernization, like the retirement of the Latin mass in favor of the vernacular one ("Vernacular? That's a doiby!").

But under a reactionary like John Paul, the church moves back toward its medieval roots, unfortunately; and his influence is going to be felt long after he's gone, since he appointed 60 of the 117 living Cardinals. Being hand-picked, the Cardinals inevitably reflect the views of the Pope who appointed them.

Gary's right, this thread is getting too serious, but I don't have any Pope jokes...

 

[Robbie883]

Somthing just came to mind reading this thread, wont there be another round of this when the new pope is elected? Im not old enough to know how big it is when a new pope is elected. So since Rob is old, no offence, maybe he can answer my question. My question is, will the new pope have a gigantic amount of tv time like when the pope died? I sure hope not!

[Dunrobin]

Somthing just came to mind reading this thread, wont there be another round of this when the new pope is elected? Im not old enough to know how big it is when a new pope is elected. So since Rob is old, no offence, maybe he can answer my question. My question is, will the new pope have a gigantic amount of tv time like when the pope died? I sure hope not!

Hey, I represent that remark! 

I'm not really surprised at the amount of coverage that is apparently being given John Paul II's death and funeral; it lets the media get away with not discussing the more important things going on, like the ongoing disaster in Mess-o-potamia, the rapidly declining "value" of the dollar (and the concurrent skyrocketing of gasoline prices here in the US, which may bring our economy to a crashing halt.)

John Paul II got a lot of coverage when he was chosen back in 1978, partly because he was the 2nd Pope selected that year (John Paul I, who succeeded Paul VI, died only 33 days after he was elected,) and also because he was the first non-Italian to be chosen as Pope in 455 years.  How much coverage the new Pope will receive will largely depend on who is chosen;  if the Cardinals select someone from Africa or Asia, he will definitely get a lot of attention, especially if he has a dynamic personality, like John Paul II did.  If the choice goes to a more run-of-the-mill European, then the media circus will probably move on to something else fairly quickly.

Of course, there's an easy way to avoid all of that crappy media coverage:  stop watching it!  I've hardly seen any of it at all, because I don't bother to watch the government propaganda channels - sorry, TV "news media".  Even when they're not outright lying to you, they're still not telling you everything you need to know to make sense of what's going on.  Much like "public education", "TV news" is essentially worthless and should be avoided.

[Dunrobin]

By the way, did you know that the College of Cardinals is not restricted to chosing one of their own members to be Pope?  They could choose a Catholic layman if they wanted to, although he would havae to be ordained as a priest and then consecrated as a bishop before taking office as Pope.  The chances of that happening are zip, but it is possible.   

[Robbie883]

Yeah thats what I figured, when you say it depends on whos chosen. But you forgot to mention somthing, if an american is chosen that may cause a huge increase in the publicity their getting. I was hearing stories on how if an american is chosen the world will complain that the election was fixed due to the fact that America is a "superpower." Kinda annoying isn't it?

[Dunrobin]

Yeah thats what I figured, when you say it depends on whos chosen. But you forgot to mention somthing, if an american is chosen that may cause a huge increase in the publicity their getting. I was hearing stories on how if an american is chosen the world will complain that the election was fixed due to the fact that America is a "superpower." Kinda annoying isn't it?

Well, I'd be very surprised to see an American chosen as Pope, especially after all of the child abuse scandals, although anything is possible, but I doubt that anyone outside of an extremely lunatic fringe would believe that the Roman Catholic Church is suddenly taking orders from Washington.

Since John Paul II created so many of the Cardinals who will be voting for his successor, I imagine that the next Pope will be pretty similar, doctrinally speaking.  My own hunch is that the next Pope will be from Africa, whose bishops tend to be much more conservative than their American or European counterparts.  (It's the same way in the Anglican Communion as well.)

Of course, the College of Cardinals could always do something completely different, and choose Mel Gibson for Pope!