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Offline shemps#1

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Ahh, but he did say "don't tell me about it", which denotes that actors should keep their personal opinions or preferences to themselves. I believe that in a perfect world everyone would keep strictly to the performance and put the personal stuff aside, but we don't live in a perfect world. It's getting a bit better though: there's that show How I Met Your Mother with openly gay Neil Patrick Harris playing a character who is a poonhound and most people seem not to blink an eye. I personally do not watch it but there is an example.

An example pertaining to me is in the baseball world: Curt Schilling is a retired pitcher who won two World Series' with the Red Sox (as well as one with the Arizona Diamondbacks). He is also a devout evangelical Christian and I can really care less about his religious or his political views: all I care about is that he was an integral part in the Red Sox' world championships of '04 and '07. I also would not tell him to "shut up and pitch" either.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline shemps#1

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I'm not putting down your beliefs at all: you are being hyper sensitive.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline shemps#1

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Well being raised religious as a kid, my defining moment came early when i realized 99.99% god was the answer.


See now i know your trying to stir up shit. You were sounding intelligent up to this point. Why be that way?? I dont go about putting you down for your beliefs. First it was Santa now its the Easter bunny.

It's not a sniping contest Quad 4's. I should be allowed to posit my point of view, should I not?  I am in no way putting down your beliefs but stating mine (or lack thereof). To me, the Yahweh concept, or any other God concept, has as much merit as Santa or the Easter Bunny due to the lack of tangible, empirical evidence for either. 
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline metaldams

I guess I lean toward theist.  But I'm still an agnostic theist.  I like to think that there may be an afterlife and at least one 'higher power.'  But I do not believe that one religion or faith is any more accurate than another.  If there is is an afterlife and/or higher powers, they could take any form.  How are we to know whether or not 'God' takes the form of a male, female, white, black, asian, etc., or a giant spaghetti monster? There could be a multitude of gods and goddesses, there could also be a group of demi-gods.
I can't prove that any of that exists, but It's a more comforting thought than the more logical, "When you die, that's it.  No reincarnation, no 'heaven' or 'hell', your spirit or soul will not roam the earth because it poof'd away the second you died." That's no fun.
I want to think that as long as you were a good person in life, you will be rewarded your own perception of 'heaven'


I definitely hear you on the comfort thing, and while there's no logic behind it actually happening, by pure faith, it would be nice to think I'll meet my grandfather who passed on before I was born.  It almost seems unfair otherwise, but hey, life ain't always fair.

I'm not as schooled on terms like "theist," "atheist," "agnostic," as much as I thought I was reading this thread, but the book Jim suggested sounds interesting, and that's also from reading some amazon reviews as well.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline Curly4444

I'm not putting down your beliefs at all: you are being hyper sensitive.

Why then the second comparison of god to a silly children's myth? I wouldn't make comparison of Atheist to something of a similar nature.

Quote
It's not a sniping contest Quad 4's. I should be allowed to posit my point of view, should I not?  I am in no way putting down your beliefs but stating mine (or lack thereof). To me, the Yahweh concept, or any other God concept, has as much merit as Santa or the Easter Bunny due to the lack of tangible, empirical evidence for either.

Yes, you most definitively should be allowed your point of view. Wasn't saying that.

I get it, but why not use a more nicer comparison to something else that you view that doesn't have much merit. Why the silly comparisons to silly children's myths. A good one would be, the cubs will win the world series before there is proven to be a god.


Offline shemps#1

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Why then the second comparison of god to a silly children's myth? I wouldn't make comparison of Atheist to something of a similar nature. I would want to diss your beliefs.

They aren't beliefs: when I say "I am an atheist" the only thing I am saying is "I don't believe X" not "I believe Y". I don't understand why you are getting all flapped up; would you rather I use Thor or Zeus or Vishnu as analogies?
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline Curly4444

Yes or the Chicago Cubs one.  ;D


Quote
They aren't beliefs: when I say "I am an atheist" the only thing I am saying is "I don't believe X" not "I believe Y".
Isn't not believing in god a belief to you? I always thought of it that way.


Offline shemps#1

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ROFL You have redeemed yourself in 6 words (as if you needed redeeming). That was an awesome Cubs burn.  :P
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline Curly4444

ROFL You have redeemed yourself in 6 words (as if you needed redeeming). That was an awesome Cubs burn.  :P

I knew you'd like it. I'll continue this later, i'm off to watch a movie.

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The cubs will win the world series before there is proven to be a god.

You should add it to your sigy.  ;D :D


Offline shemps#1

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Isn't not believing in god a belief to you? I always thought of it that way.

Actually, no. There's "belief" and "non-belief" and they are two opposite things. "Non-belief" cannot be "belief" and vice-versa.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline Seamus

The reason why I recommended the book in the first place is because Doug and Seamus were calling themselves "agnostic" but like most people who call themselves "agnostic" they sounded like they were actually atheists and the book delves deeply into this kind of "agnosticism" in the early chapters. I liken "atheism" to the Scarlett Letter and "agnosticism" to people trying to avoid being tagged with that letter. Everyone is agnostic in a sense, even you and I because we can never prove there a god(s) or that they do not exist just like we can't prove there is no Easter Bunny even though I'm sure we both would agree that there isn't one.

For the record, I never called myself agnostic, and never would.  I'm comfortable with the atheist branding.  I only added the "for-all-intents-and-purposes" qualifier for the same reason Richard Dawkins (one of the most outspoken atheists out there) rates his level of atheism at a 6 out of 7 - you can't really prove God's non-existence, so I'm leaving myself open to new evidence, but in the meantime I'll continue to assume there isn't a big sky daddy looking out for us, helping football players make touchdowns, etc.

I feel that "agnostic" is too wishy-washy, as it seems to give equal weight to both sides of the argument (i.e. you can't prove either side, so it could go either way).  But I don't think reality supports treating both positions equally.  Probabilities matter.  As we've learned more about the world and the bigger universe through science over the past few centuries, the rationale for believing in God keeps getting smaller and smaller, and I think the scales of probability tipped in favor of non-existence a long time ago.

I guess I lean toward theist.  But I'm still an agnostic theist.  I like to think that there may be an afterlife and at least one 'higher power.'  But I do not believe that one religion or faith is any more accurate than another.  If there is is an afterlife and/or higher powers, they could take any form.  How are we to know whether or not 'God' takes the form of a male, female, white, black, asian, etc., or a giant spaghetti monster? There could be a multitude of gods and goddesses, there could also be a group of demi-gods.
I can't prove that any of that exists, but It's a more comforting thought than the more logical, "When you die, that's it.  No reincarnation, no 'heaven' or 'hell', your spirit or soul will not roam the earth because it poof'd away the second you died." That's no fun.
I want to think that as long as you were a good person in life, you will be rewarded your own perception of 'heaven'

This reminds me a lot of an essay I just read by Martin Gardner (in his book The Night is Large, if anyone likes heavy reading).  Gardner's a super-rational pseudoscience debunker, and acknowledges that all evidence points to there being no god, but he still confesses to being a theist for strictly non-logical, emotionally satisfying reasons.  The essay gave me more respect for that position than I had before, even though I disagree with it.

Now I should be high fiving you! I couldn't agree with you more. In fact there are ongoing scientific studies about "moral values" and how they are key to the survival of the species. You see it in animals as well as humans (which of course blows a big hole in the "only from religion do we get moral values" idea).

Have you read Sam Harris's The Moral Landscape yet, Shempski?  I just picked it up but haven't got around to reading it yet.  This topic of a scientific basis for our moral values has been Harris' pet topic lately.  I've watched a few of his lectures on YouTube, and they're pretty engaging.



Offline shemps#1

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You mean God isn't a Patriots fan? Shit!

I'm sorry that I misread you. I haven't read The Moral Landscape yet but I probably should. It makes perfect since if you think about it; if everybody went around killing one another it wouldn't bode well for the advancement of the species.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline Wiseguy70005

Well being raised religious as a kid, my defining moment came early when i realized 99.99% god was the answer.

god? or God?

See now i know your trying to stir up shit. You were sounding intelligent up to this point. Why be that way?? I dont go about putting you down for your beliefs. First it was Santa now its the Easter bunny.

you are = you're



Offline Liz

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I'm going to have to take the road Jim took when dealing with actors and their religious beliefs, etc.  Just like Jim looked at Curt Schilling, I'm going to look at my favorite actor, Dwight Frye.  When he wasn't playing lunatics and absolute schizos on-screen, he was a devout Christian Scientist, family man, and all-around good guy.  I like to say he was the typical All-American boy before the Beach Boys showed up.  While his private life just increases the merit for judging him for some people (myself included a little bit), I judge actors mainly by what I see on-screen, and Dwight was terrific on-screen, as many of you know. 
IT'S ALIVE!!!!


Offline shemps#1

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I'm going to have to take the road Jim took when dealing with actors and their religious beliefs, etc.  Just like Jim looked at Curt Schilling, I'm going to look at my favorite actor, Dwight Frye.  When he wasn't playing lunatics and absolute schizos on-screen, he was a devout Christian Scientist, family man, and all-around good guy.  I like to say he was the typical All-American boy before the Beach Boys showed up.  While his private life just increases the merit for judging him for some people (myself included a little bit), I judge actors mainly by what I see on-screen, and Dwight was terrific on-screen, as many of you know.  

I gotta say Liz, Dwight Frye is the oddest crush a young lady in 2011 can have. Also I should say that there are even limits to the whole "private life doesn't matter" thing. I'll use Doug as an example: he was a fan of Chris Benoit but once he murdered with wife and son Doug stopped being a fan. If Schilling were to do something so heinous I would not be a fan of his anymore (although I highly doubt Curt could ever be capable of such a thing).
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline Curly4444

Quote
I gotta say Liz, Dwight Frye is the oddest crush a young lady in 2011 can have. Also I should say that there are even limits to the whole "private life doesn't matter" thing. I'll use Doug as an example: he was a fan of Chris Benoit but once he murdered with wife and son Doug stopped being a fan. If Schilling were to do something so heinous I would not be a fan of his anymore (although I highly doubt Curt could ever be capable of such a thing).

Thats true, I would stop being a fan. I dont know though if i would never watch their movies again. Like if Mel Gibson had killed his wife, it wouldn't stop me from watching Braveheart.


Offline Seamus

I gotta say Liz, Dwight Frye is the oddest crush a young lady in 2011 can have.

Or a young lady in 1931 for that matter.




Offline Liz

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I gotta say Liz, Dwight Frye is the oddest crush a young lady in 2011 can have. Also I should say that there are even limits to the whole "private life doesn't matter" thing. I'll use Doug as an example: he was a fan of Chris Benoit but once he murdered with wife and son Doug stopped being a fan. If Schilling were to do something so heinous I would not be a fan of his anymore (although I highly doubt Curt could ever be capable of such a thing).
Oh, trust me, there are others like me out there. ;)

Also, I agree with you.  If I found out that Dwight would do such a terrible thing, I would hate him with a passion (though I know he'd never do that.  His craziness was limited to the screen).
IT'S ALIVE!!!!


Offline metaldams

Or a young lady in 1931 for that matter.




Geez man, you beat me to it!

Yeah, it has to be something incredibly heinous for me to stop being a fan of a celebrities work, and Chris Benoit is the only example I can think of.  The thing with Benoit is he performed that swandive head butt so many times through the years, and that was one of the reasons why I was a fan.  Turns out the man had severe brain damage, and that move was a major reason why.

- Doug Sarnecky