Topic: Did they finally get Bin Laden ?

[shemps#1]

Did Rush tell you what to think about Tora Bora or was it Fixed News? I mean c'mon, you're really stretching to defend the shaved chimp.

You're going to have to clarify what you are referring to in regards to Obama starting a war without Congressional approval.

[ILMM]

Did Rush tell you what to think about Tora Bora or was it Fixed News? I mean c'mon, you're really stretching to defend the shaved chimp.

You're going to have to clarify what you are referring to in regards to Obama starting a war without Congressional approval.

 

No one "tells" my what to think, not Rush and not you. And to clarify about what I am referring to about Obama, here are some links;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States#Military_engagements_authorized_by_Congress
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=107_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ243.107
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=107_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ040.107

[shemps#1]

I never implied that I wanted to tell you what to think so you might want to relax with a stiff drink/fat joint/good BJ or whatever else relaxes you. You're the one who said "I'm not a fan of Bush and I don't think the US should be the World Police" but have bent over backwards defending him using Fox News talking points.

The Lybian Clusterfuck (patent pending) is none of business as far as I'm concerned so you're right. The list also has the shaved chimp up there twice for Afghanistan (which Obama is continuing) and Haiti so it feels like you're cutting off your elephant trunk to spite your face. The problem is the Executive Branch has grown far too powerful and Congress was stupid enough to approve the power grab, which is why they are able to get away with that shit. After all, Congress (via the taxpayers) is funding this shit.

[ILMM]

I'm actually quite relaxed thank you. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. You implied that Rush or Fox News does
my thinking for me which is not true. Bush is up there for Liberia and Haiti [Afghanistan doesn't count because of Congress's Approval]
And he shouldn't have done that. You're right about the Executive Branch being too powerful.
However I don't see how I'm contradicting myself by defending Bush's desire to get Bin Laden.

[JazzBill]

And now for something a little lighter. A man walks into a bar and orders a "Bin Laden". The bartender asks, how do you make it? The man says, two shots and a splash of water. 

[shemps#1]

I'm actually quite relaxed thank you. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. You implied that Rush or Fox News does
my thinking for me which is not true. Bush is up there for Liberia and Haiti [Afghanistan doesn't count because of Congress's Approval]
And he shouldn't have done that. You're right about the Executive Branch being too powerful.
However I don't see how I'm contradicting myself by defending Bush's desire to get Bin Laden.

Well here's where I'm coming from. I show the TYT clip where Bush states he is not all that worried about OBL and you say it's "not all that damning". Are TYT biased? You bet, the head guy Cenk is now on MSNBC (or as like to call it MSNBD) which is very biased and out right yellow pro-Democrat journalism. Unlike Fixed News however TYT doesn't hide it or pretend they are "fair and balanced" which is the biggest fucking joke. However the clip of Bush is not doctored and very telling. Like I said previously if I were the US President getting OBL would be my top priority and #1 on my mind, not going into Iraq under false pretenses. I then bring up Tora Bora and how Bush could have had OBL if he wanted him but told the troops to stand down. You come back with what looks to me to be sorry excuses about "too much reliance on Afghan troops". Huh? Bush had him in Tora Bora and could have killed him, which probably would have more than covered up his transgressions in the course of "Greatest Presidents" history but he told them to stand down. Instead he will (deservedly) go down as one of the worst US Presidents of all time.

Bullshit war in Iraq
Economy goes from surplus to huge deficit
Failure to get OBL
Claiming to be for "less government" but actually expanding government
Claiming to have "spoken directly to God"
Violating the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment
Spending about half of his time on vacation
Writing (most likely with a ghost writer) a terrible biography in which he details his lowest moment in office being when Kanye West said that he doesn't care about black people.

Which reminds me, either through actual concern or learning from his predecessor Obama has been much quicker to respond to the tornado damage in the South than Bush was in regards to Katrina. You've got to admit that much.

[Boid Brain]

Well here's where I'm coming from. I show the TYT clip where Bush states he is not all that worried about OBL and you say it's "not all that damning". Are TYT biased? You bet, the head guy Cenk is now on MSNBC (or as like to call it MSNBD) which is very biased and out right yellow pro-Democrat journalism. Unlike Fixed News however TYT doesn't hide it or pretend they are "fair and balanced" which is the biggest fucking joke. However the clip of Bush is not doctored and very telling. Like I said previously if I were the US President getting OBL would be my top priority and #1 on my mind, not going into Iraq under false pretenses. I then bring up Tora Bora and how Bush could have had OBL if he wanted him but told the troops to stand down. You come back with what looks to me to be sorry excuses about "too much reliance on Afghan troops". Huh? Bush had him in Tora Bora and could have killed him, which probably would have more than covered up his transgressions in the course of "Greatest Presidents" history but he told them to stand down. Instead he will (deservedly) go down as one of the worst US Presidents of all time.

Bullshit war in Iraq
Economy goes from surplus to huge deficit
Failure to get OBL
Claiming to be for "less government" but actually expanding government
Claiming to have "spoken directly to God"
Violating the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment
Spending about half of his time on vacation
Writing (most likely with a ghost writer) a terrible biography in which he details his lowest moment in office being when Kanye West said that he doesn't care about black people.

Which reminds me, either through actual concern or learning from his predecessor Obama has been much quicker to respond to the tornado damage in the South than Bush was in regards to Katrina. You've got to admit that much.

I guess I can vouch for that as Tunica County in North MS. was declared a desaster erea today due to flooding up the ass by the mighty Mississppi. In a week my place will be under water as the river swells more due to the continued rain in the north. So Obammy is my Mammy!

[Dunrobin]

This clip of Sir Thomas More, from A Man For All Seasons, sums up my attitude towards the assassination of bin Laden:

[youtube=425,350]PDBiLT3LASk[/youtube]

Most of the reactions that I have been seeing and reading this week disgust and appall me.  The majority of my fellow citizens are gullible, ignorant fools, oblivious of their own history, cheering on blatant murder rather than demanding the rule of law.

If they had gone in trying to capture him, to bring him here to face trial*, I would have thought better of this operation, but this was clearly a deliberate act of murder with no intention of following the due process of law.  The White House has already reversed and contradicted their original story, and yet the fools cheer on, swallowing every load of bullshit without thought.  That is just beneath contempt.

The government has now firmly established its "right" to kill whomever they choose without recourse to the law.  The rule of law in this country is dead; we have reverted to the age of absolute rulers. 


* On a side note, I find it interesting that the government has never seen fit to actually cite 9/11 as a reason for wanting bin Laden.  Sure, politicians have made a million sound bites making that claim over the years, but the FBI Most Wanted listing has never mentioned the 9/11 attacks.  Likewise, I wonder how many Americans know that bin Laden repeatedly denied any involvement in the 9/11 attacks, and even criticized the attacks for killing innocent women and children.  (As far as I can tell, every attack that bin Laden was involved in focused on government targets, but I haven't researched that in depth.)  I'm not defending bin Laden, but I don't see that the government has ever made a case for their claims, and considering the multitude of blatant lies they have generated in just the past 10 years I see no logical reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Boid Brain]

Dunrobin: I distinctly remember seeing a video about a week after 9/11 showing a flunky delivering the news to OBL that the towers were destroyed. He was elated. That video was not stolen, it was released by Osama to boast his victory. And if he had no part in the attack why go into hiding?

Does anyone else remember this video?

[Dunrobin]

Dunrobin: I distinctly remember seeing a video about a week after 9/11 showing a flunky delivering the news to OBL that the towers were destroyed. He was elated. That video was not stolen, it was released by Osama to boast his victory. And if he had no part in the attack why go into hiding?

Does anyone else remember this video?

I remember the alleged "confession" video that was released in December, 2001, but that was debunked years ago.  The mainstream media, though, never bothered to report on its veracity even being questioned, so I'm not surprised if you didn't know that.

I don't know about you, but I was brought up to believe that when someone has been proven a liar, you don't trust him anymore and doubt whatever he says until proven otherwise.  Politicians lie by nature, and the ones in Washington have always tended to be the most outrageous liars; this has been demonstrated repeatedly, so I'm always a bit amazed at those who will nevertheless fall for the things that politicians (and their media lapdogs) say.  My rule is to automatically suspect that the opposite of whatever they claim is probably nearer the truth, and start from there to find out what is really going on.

If someone from the government told me that the sky was blue on a bright and sunny day, I'd still look up to make sure they weren't lying.

[Dunrobin]

And if he had no part in the attack why go into hiding?

Why wouldn't he?  The U.S. government has long demonstrated that they have no compunction against killing innocent men,. women and children, even among their own people (Ruby Ridge and Waco are just two examples, not to mention all the innocent people killed in mistaken police raids every year.)  The CIA has practiced rendition for years, delivering up people that they want questioned to foreign regimes that have no qualms about torture.  Would you willing deliver yourself into their hands, knowing that?

I'm not saying that bin Laden was a saint, far from it, but I can understand his motivations.  If Russia and China decided that we needed a "regime change" (something that might well happen when the government has to finally default on all that debt they've built up over the last 50 years) and came in to run our country for us, what would you do?  Which would you consider to be the patriotic act: to suck up to the invaders or to fight back against them any way that you can?

If you actually read what bin Laden had to say, rather than blindly accepting what the politicians and their media stooges claim, you might be surprised to realize that it was the US government that he consistently condemned, not the American people.  He was outraged at the government's support of brutal, immoral dictatorships, and at their occupation of Muslim countries, just as we would (hopefully) be outraged at another country occupying our lands and supporting puppet governments to rule over us.

We were meant to be a republic, not an empire, and in allowing politicians to build an empire we have brought about our own doom.

[Boid Brain]

Whoe! How did I get into this deep water? It's obvious that you have looked into this and many other issues and have a pretty good overview of things. I don't. I'll defer.

[Dunrobin]

I tend to get rather frustrated with people when they don't see what I see going on, and sometimes I feel like Cassandra, doomed to issue warnings that no one will listen to.  I try to make myself remember that I was just as gullible for most of my life.  I was into politics from childhood (I got my start at the age of 9, pulling my little red wagon around full of brochures and bumper stickers for Barry Goldwater, back in 1964.)  I was an ardent (though not fanatical) Republican all of my life, until the 1990s.  The Internet has been responsible for my conversion, as I learned what politicians were actually doing (as opposed to what they were saying.)

I've always been a history buff, too, something that most people seem to pass over, to their misfortune.  You can't know where you are going if you don't know where you've been, and you have to dig beneath the facade of history that politicians like to fob off on us.  (For example, my boyhood idol was Abraham Lincoln, who I have learned in recent years was really a total scumbag; the popular history of Lincoln is most mostly lies and misinformation.)

I guess that I have taken the old 60s motto of "Question Authority" to heart in my old age.  I just wish I had done so much earlier in my life, when there might have been a better chance to stop what was going on.  I'm afraid that it may be too late now, although I still hope that I am wrong.  I don't have any kids, but I do worry about the future we are leaving for my nieces and nephew.

Update: I've updated the footnote in my comments above to include links to bin Laden's denials regarding 9/11.  I'm not saying that he couldn't have been lying, but I have less reason to disbelieve him than I do to disbelieve the politicians who claim otherwise; they have been proven to be blatant liars about too many other things.

[Dunrobin]

I just happened to come across this video, which seems pertinent to this discussion:

[youtube=640,390]hM3Z1lWMeRI[/youtube]

[Boid Brain]

That is a very interesting video Dun. A trillion bucks for one fuck. Sickening. And the lives lost, a million did he say?

Well, the whole thing is over my head. I have become a latter day history buff, and as you may remember my opinion of Lincoln coincides with yours. But my opinion is based on my own thinking. I have read very few negative things on him. It sounds like you have more concrete stuff on the issue.

I would surely like to be hear some of your info or be referred to somewhere I can get it.

[Dunrobin]

I would surely like to be hear some of your info or be referred to somewhere I can get it.

There is an incredible wealth of information at your fingertips.  I heartily recommend learning to use search engines, like Google, and using some imagination in crafting your searches.  For example, instead of just searching for "bin Laden" try searching for "bin Laden denies responsibility" and you'll find tons of links to articles and other people's analysis.  (Obviously there will be a lot of garbage out there too, so it helps if you have additional knowledge of your own to judge the validity of what you find.)

Added: By the way, Boid, if you are interested in the things I read on line, you should follow my personal Twitter feed.   I use it to tweet (or re-tweet) articles that I find particularly interesting or worth sharing.

[Boid Brain]

There is an incredible wealth of information at your fingertips.  I heartily recommend learning to use search engines, like Google, and using some imagination in crafting your searches.  For example, instead of just searching for "bin Laden" try searching for "bin Laden denies responsibility" and you'll find tons of links to articles and other people's analysis.  (Obviously there will be a lot of garbage out there too, so it helps if you have additional knowledge of your own to judge the validity of what you find.)

Added: By the way, Boid, if you are interested in the things I read on line, you should follow my personal Twitter feed.   I use it to tweet (or re-tweet) articles that I find particularly interesting or worth sharing.

Sadly, I don't know anything about Twitter, or what device I need to access it. But I did follow your link and read 'The Hostage situation that was not' Just a word on it at the risk of hijacking this Obama thread.

Just a disgusting example of awful police work. As an ex cop, if I were the desk Sgt. that got the call I would have dispatched 2 veteran officers (women if available) to his house to evaluate the situation. That's it. I have to figure that this police dept. had not been able to use their SWAT team for about 5 years and jumped at the "opportunity".

The excesses by agencies in this country from health care, the legal system, the defense dept. and about a thousand  other rackets are spinning out of control, with the politicians using various of these as platforms of reform for their election, which of course when they get in office they don't do shit, and are rarely called on it.

A quick story: Just last week my friend was hospitalized for a bad infection on his arm. A doctor came into his room and looked at it. He was there for 5 minutes. His bill was $2,000.00. You don't want to know what the hospital bill was for 2 days.

[Dunrobin]

Sadly, I don't know anything about Twitter, or what device I need to access it.

It's a web site.  You don't need anything special, just your web browser.  Just click on the link and you will see my feed, and you can just click on the links in my tweets to read the articles.

A quick story: Just last week my friend was hospitalized for a bad infection on his arm. A doctor came into his room and looked at it. He was there for 5 minutes. His bill was $2,000.00. You don't want to know what the hospital bill was for 2 days.

Unfortunately, I can easily believe it - I'm a data consultant for the finance department of an inner-city hospital.  I know what they charge, and why.  What you wouldn't believe is how little of that bill actually ends up in the hospital's bank account.  After nearly fifty years of government interference the whole system is an incredible mess, and with "Obamacare" coming in its getting more fouled up every day.  Expect things to get much worse.

[Boid Brain]

It's a web site.  You don't need anything special, just your web browser.  Just click on the link and you will see my feed, and you can just click on the links in my tweets to read the articles.

Unfortunately, I can easily believe it - I'm a data consultant for the finance department of an inner-city hospital.  I know what they charge, and why.  What you wouldn't believe is how little of that bill actually ends up in the hospital's bank account.  After nearly fifty years of government interference the whole system is an incredible mess, and with "Obamacare" coming in its getting more fouled up every day.  Expect things to get much worse.

I do.

[ILMM]

To shemps#1, first I'm sorry that I have taken so long to respond to you. You've told me you're coming from,
now let me tell you where I'm coming from. There is no reason for Bush to not want to get Bin Laden.
You claim He [Bush] was ''in bed'' with the Saudis. I don't agree but for the sake of this argument
let's say that's true, what could they offer him that could dissuade him from his stated goal?

Money? He's a self made millionaire; He has all the money he needs and he wouldn't be able to spend the billions necessary without suspicion.

Power? What more power can they offer The President of The United States?

Oil? Why weren't the gas prices lower?
 
Blackmail? What could they have on him that our own press, which hated him [see Rathergate] couldn't find out in eight years?
 
A threat to cut off oil? The only thing He had to do to neutralize that was to publicly announce the threat.

A military threat? The United States could squash Saudi Arabia like a bug, if it wanted to.

Loyalty to the Saudis? What reason has He to be loyal to them?

To capture or kill Osama would be the single greatest thing He could do as President, and would give him the one thing
he could gain; a measure of Political Immortality. To get Osama After He was the President during the attack, and after
He'd vowed to get him would give him good-will and love unlike anything else he could do. And if He was too stupid to
realize this, his advisors would have told him.

 The only other reason He might have let Bin Laden go is that He's evil.
George Walker Bush does not strike me as someone who does evil because He loves to do evil; Their must be some practical
reason which I don't think there is.[ I suppose violence against his family or a kidnapping might be reason, but I don't think that is
very likely]

 As for the other things you mentioned; I'm not going to talk about them, because A. I agree with you or B. while I disagree
with you I don't have the facts and/or the time to debate with you. Well, I guess thats all I've got to say about the matter, Peace Out, ILMM.

[Boid Brain]

Gad! That's quite a post.

[ILMM]

Gad! That's quite a post.

Thank You! 

[shemps#1]

The structure of your post makes it difficult on the eyes; perhaps spaces in between the separate points next time?

You constantly backtrack and debate things which are common knowledge. The Bush family have long been Saudi concubines. Why do you think HW went to war with Iraq in the first place? It wasn't for truth and justice, it's because if Iraq took over Kuwait it would have been too close to Saudi Arabia for the Saudi's liking. If the Bushes were so concerned about bigger countries invading smaller ones why not try to get China to withdrawal from Tibet? It's simply because none of Tibet's neighbors had oil or oil money.

George W. Bush was a terrible President, the worst we have seen. He anally raped the US Constitution in the name of his "God" and went into Iraq for no good reason. He ignored the victims of Hurricane Katrina and claimed in his mess of an autobiography that his lowest point in office was when Kanye West said he didn't care about black people. It wasn't 9/11, it wasn't his inability to get OBL: it was being called a racist by a rapper. And if you think for one millisecond that the Bushes do not care about acquiring more money, that they are happy with what they have, then you are more gullible than I thought. The rich always want to get richer.

[vomit]

The structure of your post makes it difficult on the eyes; perhaps spaces in between the separate points next time?

You constantly backtrack and debate things which are common knowledge. The Bush family have long been Saudi concubines. Why do you think HW went to war with Iraq in the first place? It wasn't for truth and justice, it's because if Iraq took over Kuwait it would have been too close to Saudi Arabia for the Saudi's liking. If the Bushes were so concerned about bigger countries invading smaller ones why not try to get China to withdrawal from Tibet? It's simply because none of Tibet's neighbors had oil or oil money.

George W. Bush was a terrible President, the worst we have seen. He anally raped the US Constitution in the name of his "God" and went into Iraq for no good reason. He ignored the victims of Hurricane Katrina and claimed in his mess of an autobiography that his lowest point in office was when Kanye West said he didn't care about black people. It wasn't 9/11, it wasn't his inability to get OBL: it was being called a racist by a rapper. And if you think for one millisecond that the Bushes do not care about acquiring more money, that they are happy with what they have, then you are more gullible than I thought. The rich always want to get richer.

True....and how the heck did ILMM ever think Bush was a "self-made" millionaire?  Ol Pops and grampy were loaded.   And just look at Prescott Bush's dirty laundry (including deals with Nazi germany)!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

[ILMM]

The structure of your post makes it difficult on the eyes; perhaps spaces in between the separate points next time?

You constantly backtrack and debate things which are common knowledge. The Bush family have long been Saudi concubines. Why do you think HW went to war with Iraq in the first place? It wasn't for truth and justice, it's because if Iraq took over Kuwait it would have been too close to Saudi Arabia for the Saudi's liking. If the Bushes were so concerned about bigger countries invading smaller ones why not try to get China to withdrawal from Tibet? It's simply because none of Tibet's neighbors had oil or oil money.

George W. Bush was a terrible President, the worst we have seen. He anally raped the US Constitution in the name of his "God" and went into Iraq for no good reason. He ignored the victims of Hurricane Katrina and claimed in his mess of an autobiography that his lowest point in office was when Kanye West said he didn't care about black people. It wasn't 9/11, it wasn't his inability to get OBL: it was being called a racist by a rapper. And if you think for one millisecond that the Bushes do not care about acquiring more money, that they are happy with what they have, then you are more gullible than I thought. The rich always want to get richer.

How exactly have I backtracked ? I'm debating Bush's desire to get Bin Laden. In fact, I'm not even debating with you about
the Bush families connections to the Saudis. The point of my post was to show that even if they are true, it wouldn't  necessarily
effect his ability to get Osama. And I'm sure the Bushes would love to be richer, However the point I was trying to make
was that bribe money is worthless if you can't spend it. And I don't know that money is that important to Bush, He seems to
live rather frugally [for a millionaire].