Topic: Crappiest Cartoon Studio

[shemps#1]

I'm talking anything from the '30's-'80's than anything today. Any fan of animation should have an opinion on this.

[shemps#1]

A tough one to judge, but the low budget turds of HB beat out the ultra-sappy Disney.

[Pilsner Panther]

Hands down, Filmation, the George W. Bush of cartoon studios:

http://www.geocities.com/sshumsuper7fan78/JimsFilmationpage.htm

That must be some other Jim...

 

[Dunrobin]

I, too, went with Hanna-Barbera - although if I had noticed Pilsner's comment about Filmation I might have thought twice about it.

Of the named choices in the poll, HB is easily the worst of the lot.  That's not to say it was always so - the early Tom and Jerry cartoons are great, and I was always fond of the Flintstones (up until the point where they brought in Pebbles and then Bam-Bam), but the vast majority of their stuff was absolute crap.

Sure Disney's cartoons have become real schlep, but the animated features they made when Walt was alive were well done.

There are four cartoon shows that I particularly remember loving as a little kid which I never see these days - "Crusader Rabbit", "Clutch Cargo", "Beanie and Cecil" and "Astroboy."   I don't remember that much about "Crusader Rabbit" other than the animation being crappy;  "Clutch Cargo" had the bizarre human lips on the characters;  "Beanie and Cecil" had my favorite bad guy - Dishonest John; and "Astroboy" was the original Japanese anime.  I don't remember which studios produced any of these shows (although I think HB may have done the "Beanie and Cecil" show.)

[Pilsner Panther]

You're really dating yourself, there, Rob! The only one of those cartoons I can remember seeing as a kid is "Astroboy;" I think it was either WPIX (home of Officer Joe Bolton and the Stooges) or WNEW in N.Y.C. that carried it. Crusader Rabbit, Clutch Cargo, and Beany & Cecil were a little before my time.

However, I do know that Crusader Rabbit was an early product of the Jay Ward Studio (later famous for the classic "Rocky and Bullwinkle," a cartoon series that proved that low budgets didn't matter if you had some hilarious scripts and some great voice actors).

"Beany and Cecil" was produced by Bob Clampett, one of the best of the Warner Bros. cartoon directors... I've never seen an episode, though. If it had the kind of manic energy that Clampett's WB cartoons did, it must have been pretty funny!

BTW, here's an interesting Hanna-Barbera link: ever wondered what their custom-built headquarters looked like? Pure "Jetsons," what else?

http://members.aol.com/vanman2677/hbstudios.html

There used to be a better website with more pictures, including interior shots, but it seems to be gone.

Also, here's an audio clip of the "Fractured Fairy Tales" theme from the Rocky & Bullwinkle show. It's only 20 seconds long, but it'll bring back a lot of memories for the (ahem, ahem), way-over-35 crowd.

At the end, I keep expecting to hear the voice of Edward Everett Horton!

 

Okay, it's over in Pilsner's Picks, since I don't seem to have permission to post MP3's in the main forum... so much for being a Global Moderator!

 

[Dunrobin]

You're really dating yourself, there, Rob! The only one of those cartoons I can remember seeing as a kid is "Astroboy;" I think it was either WPIX (home of Officer Joe Bolton and the Stooges) or WNEW in N.Y.C. that carried it. Crusader Rabbit, Clutch Cargo, and Beany & Cecil were a little before my time.

Now that I'm home I have some time to do a little research.

I am dating myself.  Clutch Cargo was made in 1959, when I was four.  I must have been living in Levittown, NY when that was on the air (although it's quite possible that is was re-aired later by one of the NYC stations, when I lived in Greenwich, Conn., in the early 60's.)

However, I do know that Crusader Rabbit was an early product of the Jay Ward Studio (later famous for the classic "Rocky and Bullwinkle," a cartoon series that proved that low budgets didn't matter if you had some hilarious scripts and some great voice actors).

Crusader Rabbit was even early - in fact, it was apparently the first Saturday morning cartoon show.  It ran from 1950 - 1957.  (I'm almost certain that this had to have been re-aired by a NYC station, as I can definitely picture myself in Greenwich watching it on our first "real" black-and-white TV (the first one we had was built by my Dad from a Heathkit back in the 50's, with an oval picture tube.)

You're right - Jay Ward was involved with Crusader Rabbit, as producer.

"Beany and Cecil" was produced by Bob Clampett, one of the best of the Warner Bros. cartoon directors... I've never seen an episode, though. If it had the kind of manic energy that Clampett's WB cartoons did, it must have been pretty funny!

I remember Beany and Cecil (the Seasick Sea Serpent) as being pretty off-beat.  My favorite character in it, though, was Dishonest John, their arch-nemesis.  Bob Clampett apparently wrote the scripts for all 78 episodes.  It debutted as a prime-time show in 1962, and then ran as a Saturday morning cartoon from 1963 - 1968.

BTW, here's an interesting Hanna-Barbera link: ever wondered what their custom-built headquarters looked like? Pure "Jetsons," what else?

http://members.aol.com/vanman2677/hbstudios.html

There used to be a better website with more pictures, including interior shots, but it seems to be gone.

Also, here's an audio clip of the "Fractured Fairy Tales" theme from the Rocky & Bullwinkle show. It's only 20 seconds long, but it'll bring back a lot of memories for the (ahem, ahem), way-over-35 crowd.

At the end, I keep expecting to hear the voice of Edward Everett Horton!

 

Okay, it's over in Pilsner's Picks, since I don't seem to have permission to post MP3's in the main forum... so much for being a Global Moderator!

I loved Fractured Fairy Tales!  Edward Everett Horton's voice was almost hypnotic when I was a kid. 

I didn't allow attachments in this forum when I set it up, as the server is getting tight on space.  That's why you're a bit more restricted now over on Pilsner's Picks.  We may be upgrading to the next sized server package in the not too distant future, as I am working on several new sites and if we land one more they will definitely pay for the bigger server.

I've modified the permissions somewhat to allow the Moderators and Team Stooge members to post attachments here, and of course, to allow everyone else to view them.   

[shemps#1]

I actually remember some of those Filmation toons, such as Blackstar and Ghostbusters. Those were crappy toons, and although Ghostbusters had a bit of a following (and infamy with the movie folks releasing a "Real Ghostbusters"), they just weren't as big as HB. When you look at cartoons like Yogi Bear, Snagglepuss, Jetsons, and especially Scooby Doo, anybody can see that they are pure crap done on a shoestring budget: but they were huge hits. It boggles the mind.

[Pilsner Panther]

I actually remember some of those Filmation toons, such as Blackstar and Ghostbusters. Those were crappy toons, and although Ghostbusters had a bit of a following (and infamy with the movie folks releasing a "Real Ghostbusters"), they just weren't as big as HB. When you look at cartoons like Yogi Bear, Snagglepuss, Jetsons, and especially Scooby Doo, anybody can see that they are pure crap done on a shoestring budget: but they were huge hits. It boggles the mind.

A lot of HB's success revolved around voice talent, which came pretty cheap in the early 60's when the major cartoon studios, film shorts departments, and comedy and drama features on radio all folded at once, thanks to the arrival of TV.

Their big star was Daws Butler, whose Huckleberry Hound voice was exactly the same one that he'd done as the Wolf in the 40's-50's MGM Tex Avery Cartoons.

http://www.dawsbutler.com/

They also had Mel Blanc, the greatest voice man of them all (Barney Rubble, Mr. Spacely, and a dozen or so other HB characters), Jean Van Der Pyl, Bea Benaderet, Paul Frees, Paul Winchell, and a lot of other radio comedy veterans who came and went with the various cartoons. It was a well-paying gig for these superb talents, when there weren't a whole lot of other gigs around.

Bill Hanna and Joe Barbera were just lucky, I'd say, like Duke Ellington was in the 20's and 30's when he could hire all the best jazz musicians he could find, and put together exactly the orchestra he wanted. There's something to be said for being in the right place at the right time...

Except that not everyone gets the chance, that is.

 

[shemps#1]

Don't forget the uber-talent that is Casey Casem. Zoinks!

Seriously, I'd rather put my head through a brick wall than watch HB cartoons (the lone exception to the rule being early Flintstones).

[Dunrobin]

Don't forget the uber-talent that is Casey Casem. Zoinks!

Seriously, I'd rather put my head through a brick wall than watch HB cartoons (the lone exception to the rule being early Flintstones).

What?  You don't like Tom and Jerry?  (I mean the early ones, with the great artwork and sound effects, not the crappy later "drive-in" ones with the calypso music, etc.)

[Pilsner Panther]

Don't forget the uber-talent that is Casey Casem. Zoinks!

Seriously, I'd rather put my head through a brick wall than watch HB cartoons (the lone exception to the rule being early Flintstones).

What?  You don't like Tom and Jerry?  (I mean the early ones, with the great artwork and sound effects, not the crappy later "drive-in" ones with the calypso music, etc.)

My personal favorite Tom and Jerry is one from the mid-40's called "Mouse In Manhattan." The animation and the background paintings (all night and interior scenes) are both gorgeous, and the cartoon has a wonderful, melodically lush, George Gershwin-influenced score written by the brilliant MGM Music Director, Scott Bradley.

There's no dialogue, of course... it's all visual comedy, and a little gentler and warmer than most of the Tom and Jerrys (no baseball bats to the back of the head and teeth flying out, etc.). It's a classic that belongs on anyone's Top Ten list of animated shorts.

Hanna and Barbera definitely had some real talent, but eventually they became more interested in making piles of money than making great cartoons. What's ironic is that they made a lot more money after they cheapened their product!

The later Tom and Jerrys stink so badly because they were made in Eastern Europe (Hungary, if I remember right), by animators who not only didn't understand the characters, but who couldn't draw very well, either... and the soundtracks sound like they were thrown together from whatever old background music and sound effects records that happened to be lying around the studio.

An early example of "offshoring" jobs to cut costs? I suppose so, and with the predictable lousy results.

[shemps#1]

No, I'm not a fan of Tom & Jerry, but the better ones were made by MGM's studio. I can tolerate those, but not the later (crappier) ones you refer too, which were made by the HB studio.

[BeAStooge]

Clutch Cargo[/url] was made in 1959, when I was four. 

CLUTCH CARGO was produced by Cambria... the same company that did THE NEW 3 STOOGES (1965).

The voice (and "lips") of Clutch Cargo's girlfriend was Margaret Kerry, then-wife of Cambria president Dick Brown.  Ms. Kerry was the actress in the NEW 3 STOOGES live-action segments (e.g., Sunbathers, Decorators, Electricians, Barbers, Waiters), and she did the voiceovers for the female, juvenile and other misc characters in the animated segments... she's in approx. 2/3 of the 156 Stooges cartoons.

Another BTW... Margaret's son and daughter appeared in the live-actions too.  In "Sunbathers," that's her real-life daughter.  Her son is the blonde-headed boy in "Salesmen," and both kids appeared in the children-crowd scenes of "Melodrama," "Sharpshooter" and "Magicians."  (Along with Moe's grandchildren Jeff and Michael.)

CLUTCH CARGO's supporting voice cast included Hal Smith, aka ANDY GRIFFITH's "Otis Campbell."  In addition to playing King Thesus in THE THREE STOOGES MEET HERCULES, Smith did voices for approx. 3/4 of THE NEW THREE STOOGES' 156 toons (Tim Bear, Get-Out-of-Town-by-Sundown Brown, etc.)

"Beany and Cecil" was produced by Bob Clampett, one of the best of the Warner Bros. cartoon directors... I've never seen an episode, though. If it had the kind of manic energy that Clampett's WB cartoons did, it must have been pretty funny!

A TV puppet show in the late '40s and early '50s, Clampett brought B&C back to TV as animation in the early '60s.  Not the manic comedy of Clampett's LT/MM years, because it was children's TV... but clever, and beautifully animated in spite of TV budgets... not theatrical full-animation, but much better than the usual limited TV animation.

Clampett was a Stooges fan, and one of his B&C toons featured the Stooges, "The Capture of the Three Headed Threep" (1961).

[BeAStooge]

.... the later (crappier) ones you refer too, which were made by the HB studio.

The theatrical T&J toons that Dunrobin and Pilsner refer to were produced by Gene Dietch's European studio in the late '50s.

Hanna-Barbera left T&J behind when MGM closed its in-house animation unit in 1957.  After a couple years of Dietch theatricals, MGM outsourced to Chuck Jones, who cranked out more T&J theatricals from 1963 - 1967.

H-B didn't return to the characters until the 1970s, when CBS and MGM hired them to produce a Saturday morning TV cartoon series.

[Pilsner Panther]

.... the later (crappier) ones you refer too, which were made by the HB studio.

The theatrical T&J toons that Dunrobin and Pilsner refer to were produced by Gene Dietch's European studio in the late '50s.

Hanna-Barbera left T&J behind when MGM closed its in-house animation unit in 1957.  After a couple years of Dietch theatricals, MGM outsourced to Chuck Jones, who cranked out more T&J theatricals from 1963 - 1967.

H-B didn't return to the characters until the 1970s, when CBS and MGM hired them to produce a Saturday morning TV cartoon series.

I remember reading somewhere (it might have been in his autobiography, "Chuck Amuck,") that Chuck Jones wasn't too happy with his Tom & Jerry cartoons. His comment— I can't remember it word-for-word— was something like, "The characters just didn't work for me. Imagine Bill and Joe (Bill Hanna and Joe Barbera) doing the Road Runner."

The cartoons really aren't that bad, since Chuck was still working with most of his later WB team when he made them (Abe Levitow, Ben Washam, Gerry Chiniquy, et al.), and MGM gave them decent enough budgets. As entertainment, they're not first-rate, but they're certainly miles beyond the Dietch product, which is as bargain-basement cheap as you can get. Even the soundtracks suck, and a good soundtrack has saved many a lousy cartoon... but not in this case.

 

[BeAStooge]

I actually remember some of those Filmation toons, such as Blackstar and Ghostbusters. Those were crappy toons...

Then, yes.

But in the mid-late '60s, Filmation redefined Saturday morning TV programming.  Filmaton was better than HB, and by 1968, Filmation dominated TV animation.  As distasteful as it may be to hear this, introducing SCOOBY DOO in 1969 was one of HB's attempts to compete with Filmation.

Filmation was turning out some great stuff for kids on Saturday morning TV from 1966 - 1969, in partnership with DC Comics.  Full of limited/recycled animation, faithful to the comic books, and full of voice-actor enthusiasm, with narraton (and character voice credits) by MTM's Ted Knight:
 - SUPERMAN (1966 - 1967), with voice credits by the '41--'43 Fleischer toon cast, who were also the 1940s radio cast... Bud Collyer, Joan Alexander and Jackson Beck, plus SUPERBOY toons with Bob Hastings as the Boy of Steel
 - THE AQUAMAN/SUPERMAN HOUR (1967 - 1968); packaging the prior years' SUPERMAN toons, with new AQUAMAN, JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, FLASH, GREEN LANTERN, HAWKMAN and ATOM toons.
 - THE BATMAN/SUPERMAN HOUR (1968 - 1969); repackaging the earlier series, with new BATMAN toons that combined elements of the Adam West series with the pre-Neal Adams comic books.

 - THE ARCHIES (1967 - 1969)  A faithful comic book adaptation, that jumped on the bubble-gum pop wagon with a studio band that put several top-40 hits on the charts for two years.  This and the Cowsills were the inspiration for THE PARTRIDGE FAMILY (1971 - 1974).
(That earthquake you just felt was Shemps#1, absorbing the above-mentioned reality of late '60s pop music culture.  If he can manage to side-step a coronary or cerebral hemorrage, please know that you have just witnessed the fuse that will light a new series of MTS posts.)
In spite of the music "issues," THE ARCHIES was  a fun series for kids.

 - When Filmation was on the ropes in early '70s, Paramount and Gene Roddenberry hired it to produce STAR TREK: THE ANIMATED SERIES (1972 - 1974).  Overall, excellent scripts combined with terrible animation.

After STAR TREK, I can't think of one decent Filmation product.

[Viva]

I forgot about this thread. I would've bumped it myself.

To those who bash Hanna-Barberra: I hope you actually meant that they were good, but (one of) the worst of the poll options. They had various styles of animation, including, abstract animals, realistic animals, abstract people, realistic people and other creatures. Let me remind you now of the great HB cartons you might have forgotten about or were not aware of:

Godzilla
Superfriends (DC comics)
Thundarr the Barbarian
The Herculoids
Space Ghost
Johnny Quest (the original, not the crappy 1990's series)
Marvel comics toons: Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Incredible Hulk, etc.
The Blue Falcon and Dynomutt
Inch-High Private Eye
Challenge of the Go-Bots
The Harlem Globetrotters

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't  HB also do Dungeons & Dragons?

There is probably more I'm forgetting, but that list contains several styles of animation. Johnny Quest would look very odd standing next to a Go-Bot or those blobby things from The Herculoids. Thundarr and the people in the Godzilla would look odd standing together. There were 3 main styles of dogs. Here are there representatives: Augie Doggy (from Yogi and Friends), Scooby-Doo and Hong Kong Phooey. These 3 dogs looked very different from each other, even more different than Goofy and Pluto. So HB's styles were much more diverse than they get credit for.

For those who bashed Filmation, don't forget they did these 2:

He-Man and the Masters of the Universe
She-Ra, Pincess of Power

(I know the latter may sound like a girl's cartoon, but it tied in with He-Man-- mainly in the Mattel toy lines, but there was a joint TV special too. Both genders watched it. He-Man and She-Ra were siblings)

[shemps#1]

Gee Eric, every cartoon you mentioned sucked major ass!

I have no idea how you manage to have the worst taste in just about everything,

[Genius In the Lamp]

All this mention of crappy animation, and nary a word about King Features Syndicate, responsible for those godawful 60s Popeye cartoons?  Those piles of fecal matter made the Famous Studios Popeyes look like masterpieces!

[metaldams]

I'm not a well-rounded cartoon guy in my adult years, but here are the limited opinions I have.

Old WB cartoons are excellent.  The slapstick is wonderful and this makes these shorts easy viewings for kids, yet the subtle bits of humor in them is easier to appreciate as an adult.

I watched PINOCCHIO recently.  Beautiful animation gives those old Disney films value, but the story was pure sap.

For HB, I saw a Tom and Jerry cartoon recently in the dining hall on campus (Though it may have been a Tex Avery one for all I know, or did they work together?  You see, I told you I'm not a cartoon expert) and had a zillion people look at me weird cause I was laughing so hard.      Later HB stuff is pure crap and it's not even worth discussing.

[shemps#1]

I actually remember some of those Filmation toons, such as Blackstar and Ghostbusters. Those were crappy toons...

Then, yes.

But in the mid-late '60s, Filmation redefined Saturday morning TV programming.  Filmaton was better than HB, and by 1968, Filmation dominated TV animation.  As distasteful as it may be to hear this, introducing SCOOBY DOO in 1969 was one of HB's attempts to compete with Filmation.

Filmation was turning out some great stuff for kids on Saturday morning TV from 1966 - 1969, in partnership with DC Comics.  Full of limited/recycled animation, faithful to the comic books, and full of voice-actor enthusiasm, with narraton (and character voice credits) by MTM's Ted Knight:
 - SUPERMAN (1966 - 1967), with voice credits by the '41--'43 Fleischer toon cast, who were also the 1940s radio cast... Bud Collyer, Joan Alexander and Jackson Beck, plus SUPERBOY toons with Bob Hastings as the Boy of Steel
 - THE AQUAMAN/SUPERMAN HOUR (1967 - 1968); packaging the prior years' SUPERMAN toons, with new AQUAMAN, JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, FLASH, GREEN LANTERN, HAWKMAN and ATOM toons.
 - THE BATMAN/SUPERMAN HOUR (1968 - 1969); repackaging the earlier series, with new BATMAN toons that combined elements of the Adam West series with the pre-Neal Adams comic books.

 - THE ARCHIES (1967 - 1969)  A faithful comic book adaptation, that jumped on the bubble-gum pop wagon with a studio band that put several top-40 hits on the charts for two years.  This and the Cowsills were the inspiration for THE PARTRIDGE FAMILY (1971 - 1974).
(That earthquake you just felt was Shemps#1, absorbing the above-mentioned reality of late '60s pop music culture.  If he can manage to side-step a coronary or cerebral hemorrage, please know that you have just witnessed the fuse that will light a new series of MTS posts.)
In spite of the music "issues," THE ARCHIES was  a fun series for kids.

 - When Filmation was on the ropes in early '70s, Paramount and Gene Roddenberry hired it to produce STAR TREK: THE ANIMATED SERIES (1972 - 1974).  Overall, excellent scripts combined with terrible animation.

After STAR TREK, I can't think of one decent Filmation product.

Now that you've mentioned it Brent, look for brand new installments of MTS later this month/beginning of December.

[BeAStooge]

To those who bash Hanna-Barberra: I hope you actually meant that they were good, but (one of) the worst of the poll options.

Keep hoping.  I mean to say that every ounce of HB's quality was gone by the late '60s.

HB cartons you might have forgotten about or were not aware of...
Johnny Quest
Marvel comics toons: Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Incredible Hulk, etc.

JOHNNY QUEST was produced in 1963, and yes, it is a highlight of HB's television contributions.

With the exception of FANTASTIC FOUR (1966 - 1967), Hanna-Barbera did not produce Marvel series adaptations:
 - SPIDER-MAN (1966 - 1968) was produced by Gantray-Lawrence and Ralph Bakshi Studios.
 - "The Incredible Hulk" was part of MARVEL SUPER-HEROES (1966 - 1967), produced by Gantray-Lawrence Studios.  The other MSH revolving titles were "Captain America," "Thor," "Iron Man" and "Sub-Mariner."
 - Marvel adaptations done in the '70s were produced by Depatie/Freleng, and in the '80s & '90s by Marvel Entertainment (which purchased D/F).

[ISLIPP]

Gee Eric, every cartoon you mentioned sucked major ass!

I have no idea how you manage to have the worst taste in just about everything,

You're starting this crap again? Nothing like using insults from a few years ago on other boards to demonstrate the ol' mental superiority, eh?

Truth is, you'd say anything to get a rise out of me, probably so you would have just cause to ban me. Mental superiority, my eye. Stevie Wonder could see this ploy coming a mile away.

Anyone who was cool liked most of those cartoons as their favorites, and the rest as moderate favorites.

Wow, BeaStooge! As always, I'm humbled by your knowledge. I looked in my "Marvel Comics 25th Anniversary" book and not only did it confirm what you said, but you outsourced it!

Btw, the evidence is gone now, but it was me who reccomended you for your high position on the board. You deserve it, fella! Of course, my idea of having you as a replacement wasn't followed through on. No surprise there, as a certain someone's blinders must be surgically attached.

[Dunrobin]

Gee Eric, every cartoon you mentioned sucked major ass!

I have no idea how you manage to have the worst taste in just about everything,

Anyone who was cool liked most of those cartoons as their favorites, and the rest as moderate favorites.

Well, Eric, all I can say is that you must have hung out with an extremely "uncool" crowd.  With the exception of the original Jonny Quest series, the cartoons you listed completely sucked.  They did then, and they do now.  Even drugs couldn't make them "cool."  (And if you're taking something that does make them seem cool, then share with the rest of us!)

(Space Ghost only became cool when he got his own late-night talk show.) 

[shemps#1]

Eric wouldn't know cool if it sodomized him.