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The Pro Wrestling Thread

metaldams · 256 · 117239

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Offline jesster64

Sorry for the 3rd post, but I just love the topic. Some of my favorite memories, Pistol Pez Whatly getting a new teamate every week to combat the Road Warriors. Christian and Edge with the con-chair-toe. Magnum TA kissing Babydoll. Ravashing Rick Rudes tights. Any Rick Flair interview. Torrie Wilson, absolutely flawless. Sables bikini. Freedie Blassie, Lou Albano, the Grand Wizard. Zabysko vs Sammartino. Midnight Express entrance music. Superstar Billy Graham interview. High Chief Peter Maiva. The unpredictable Johnny Rodz. Pedro Morales and his gut slap. Cowboy Bob Orton and his superplex. Killer Kowalskis tights. Baron Miguel Secluna from the Isle of Malta. Baron Von Rashkes goose step. Bobby Heenan and Gorilla Monsoon.
I love you tube. Type in any name and they have clips of them in action.


Offline jesster64

As for Hall, last I heard, he has a son who wrestles, so he has been clean and sober while teaching his son the business.


Offline shemps#1

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Hate on Hulk Hogan and his "5 moves" all you want, but he had what was most important: the ability to put asses in seats. People who think that Professional Wrestling is some of athletic competition are sadly mistaken and misguided. That Daniel Bryan guy is supposedly a "great wrestler" but he has no personality, is a fuckin' mush mouth and does not put asses in seats. I don't think the vast majority of wrestling fans are buying tickets or Pay Per Views to look at vanilla Bob Backlund throwbacks like Daniel Bryan, they are going to see guys like John Cena. That's what counts, not this bullshit about how many wrestling moves you can perform. Ultimate Warrior said it best when responding to someone who said Dean Malenko was better than him: "Dean Malenko may know 1001 holds and I may only know 3, but I'll compare check books to his anytime".

Many of the "greats" were not mat technicians: Hogan, Dusty, Andre, Austin, Rock, Cena. Heck, you can go back further to the likes of Superstar Billy Graham, Bruno Sammartino, George the Animal Steele (who mostly wrestled part time until he retired from teaching), even as far back as Gorgeous George. Nobody ever accused Gorgeous George of being a technical wizard, but he had tons of personality and charisma to back up his paltry move set and was the biggest wrestling star of his day. It used to piss me off when someone like Lou Thesz would go on these TV shows and say stuff like "so and so can't really wrestle". I wanted to smack his whithered, jealous face and say "sure they can't, but it doesn't matter because they aren't really wrestling". You said it yourself, watching wrestling from back in those days is hard because it was so boring.

Backlund was absolutely terrible during his original run. I was actually cheering when Iron Sheik took the belt from him and back then as a young tike I never rooted for the heels. He was absolutely vanilla and as dull as dishwater. What good is going Broadway (60 mins) with Greg Valentine if I am falling asleep 10 mins in? There was a very good reason why when Vince Jr. took control from his father one of the first things he did was set it up to get the belt off Backlund and on to Hogan. He had to sit there and watch Backlund, the champ, who would be in the midcard while your Brunos, Andres and Wild Samoans were in the main events. Now when Backlund came back in the mid 90's and started doing the "crazy old man" Mr. Backlund stuff: that was gold.

When you had a guy who was "double threat" like a Randy Savage or a Ric Flair it was really something. Guys who were praised for their "in ring ability" AND had charisma/could cut a promo/put asses in seats are a rare breed. Some people might want to Shawn Michaels in that group but they fail to remember that he was the second-lowest drawing champ in WWF history (only Nash drew worse numbers) and under his watch WCW almost killed them until Austin took over. If you want to watch "great technical wrestling" then you should watch UFC or the amateur stuff. Those "5 moves" made Hogan and Vince tons of money and guys like Lou Thesz wouldn't have been asked about wrestling if it weren't for them.

I still watch (on Mondays when there isn't football or there is a crappy game usually) but I couldn't tell you why I do. Most of the new guys are generic "cookie cutter/cut from the same mold" types and even those that aren't don't interest me enough. I don't cheer for anyone or boo anyone, if I take a rooting interest it's more of a "why is this guy getting a push, he sucks or isn't ready" thing. It's not me they are looking for anymore: they got me in the 80's with Hulkamania, they got me in the 90's with the edgy nWo/attitude stuff, but now they are looking for a younger audience. When those of us in our 30's and older can come to grips with the fact that they are not trying to appeal to us specifically with today's product, that they are trying appeal to our kids, then you can watch it with a different perspective (a more analytical one). Naturally it doesn't beat the Old School.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline metaldams

Jim, if I may play a little Devil's Advocate here.

Over the years I have softened on the whole techinal wrestling is the only great form of wrestling stance and have come to appreciate the characters as well, though I appreciate both.  However, the whole argument of "putting asses in the seat" bothers me (and so many people use it, not just you) because it says the only barometer for greatness is commercial success.  When you watch (or don't watch) the Super Bowl half-time show this year, remember that Madonna puts asses in the seats, and she's been doing so for many decades.  It doesn't mean she's great.  I will also say that I don't care how many asses John Cena puts in the seats, I simply can't relate to the guy.  Probably an age thing.

Hulk Hogan no doubt is important to the history of professional wrestling, and I can look beyond his five moves these days, however, when I was 13 years old, I saw a WWF Superstars taping in New Haven.  About 40 matches, 35 of them jobber matches, and 5 name matches.  Ric Flair wrestled three times that night, including a 20 minute match with Bret Hart, the most entertaining match of the night by far.  After a slew of jobber matches, the crowd is restless for the main event, and we finally get the main event of Hogan Vs. Undertaker.  the match is 3 minutes long and Hogan wins by DQ.  Now I know one night does not determine Hogan's legacy, but I can promise you myself and everybody else in the New Haven Colisuem that night felt ripped off by Hogan.  He owed that crowd more than a 3 minute match, especially after the hours of jobber matches.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline shemps#1

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Jim, if I may play a little Devil's Advocate here.

Over the years I have softened on the whole techinal wrestling is the only great form of wrestling stance and have come to appreciate the characters as well, though I appreciate both.  However, the whole argument of "putting asses in the seat" bothers me (and so many people use it, not just you) because it says the only barometer for greatness is commercial success.  When you watch (or don't watch) the Super Bowl half-time show this year, remember that Madonna puts asses in the seats, and she's been doing so for many decades.  It doesn't mean she's great.  I will also say that I don't care how many asses John Cena puts in the seats, I simply can't relate to the guy.  Probably an age thing.

Hulk Hogan no doubt is important to the history of professional wrestling, and I can look beyond his five moves these days, however, when I was 13 years old, I saw a WWF Superstars taping in New Haven.  About 40 matches, 35 of them jobber matches, and 5 name matches.  Ric Flair wrestled three times that night, including a 20 minute match with Bret Hart, the most entertaining match of the night by far.  After a slew of jobber matches, the crowd is restless for the main event, and we finally get the main event of Hogan Vs. Undertaker.  the match is 3 minutes long and Hogan wins by DQ.  Now I know one night does not determine Hogan's legacy, but I can promise you myself and everybody else in the New Haven Colisuem that night felt ripped off by Hogan.  He owed that crowd more than a 3 minute match, especially after the hours of jobber matches.

I'll see your Devil's Advocate and raise you a....I dunno.

Is commercial success the ONLY barometer? No. In professional wrestling is the MOST IMPORTANT barometer? Most definitely. Remember, Vince or any other wrestling promoter is asking the audience at the arena to pay money (and those at home to either tune in or buy a PPV) to see a bunch of (mostly) men pretend to hate each other and pretend to fight. Everybody has known as a matter of fact that professional wrestling is "scripted" (in more common terms "fake") since Vince came out and admitted it in the 80's to avoid state athletic commission fees. Even before that happened most people were "pretty sure" that everything going on in that ring was not on the up and up.

Getting people to pay money to see something that looks like it might be a sport but in actuality is not one is a very hard sell. Most people do not go to wrestling events to see two nondescript guys perform various technical moves, they go to see the larger than life personalities.  I watched for the Hogans, Pipers, JYDs...not to see a Johnny Rodz put on a 12 minute exhibition against "insert 80's young wrestler we are trying to get his feet wet here". Hogan, with his 5 moves was able to draw the crowd into his match and tell a story in the ring, something that is sorely missing from today. I would much rather see Hogan use his 5 moves to beat King Kong Bundy or whomever than watch two nondescript Mexicans flip around in the ring and wait around like a fucking buffoon for the opponent to set up his fancy flying move with his arms stretched out ready to catch a baby. I saw that shit so many times on Monday Nitro. After the move is hit these Luchadores get right back up like nothing happened and set up the next high spot.

As for your story, there are variables being left out. After a couple of hours of mostly jobber matches for TV tapings there might not have been much time for Hogan and Undertaker to have a proper match. Why are you placing all of the blame on Hogan? I know he had a lot of stroke at the time but if the time on the arena lease was coming near the end I don't think he had it in his power to extend it so he could have a 10-15 minute match as opposed to a 3 minute one. As for the DQ ending that's typical of a dark match from back then and I don't blame them. If you see Hogan pin Taker or vice versa in a New Haven dark match what would persuade you to buy a PPV to see it?

In the case of more than one scenario like this you should always go with the one that is more plausible and less sensationalistic as it's usually closer to the truth.

1. The Hulk Hogan vs Undertaker match went only 3 minutes because Hogan has a huge ego, wanted to rip off the fans and was just there to collect a pay day.

2. The Hulk Hogan vs Undertaker match went only 3 minutes because of hours of taping television there was not a lot time left for the match and the TV matches take precedent over the dark match main event.

Wrestlers who do not put asses in seats can have great careers, just not at the top of the card.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline shemps#1

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Stupid tangent, I forgot to address the Madonna issue and why your comparison is not apt. If it were up to me naturally Madonna would not be performing at the Super Bowl. It's not just because I don't like her music but also because I don't think she fits in with NFL Football. But the NFL likes to think of the Super Bowl as transcending their normal audience to a much wider audience, and I guess they are right on that. People who do not watch a single game all season will watch the Super Bowl and from experience I can tell you that it sucks balls to watch the game with them.

Wrestling has a much smaller potential audience than music. A wrestler's potential audience is comprised of those who are already watching wrestling and those who may get into wrestling along the way. A musician's potential audience is anyone who can hear. With the much wider potential audience there is more room for different types of musicians to become popular. Not everybody has good taste so naturally you get musicians who are not good at all selling product even though millions hate their music. The same is not so for wrestling.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline jesster64

Why the anger shemps? If you enjoy Hogan, your're among millions. I just couldn't stand the same match week after week. A bundy splash eliminated every opponent, yet when it was used on hogan, he hulks up, fist fist, boot to face, leg drop. He had 4 moves, punch, clothesline, boot, leg drop. Yet he realized early its not about the moves, its about the charisma. I always thought Hogan was the reason the WWF destroyed Verne Gagnes promotion in MN. Who would you rather watch, a giant with a name like Hulk Hogan, or a wrestler by the name Nick Bockwinkle. Vince knew what he was doing.
I started watching wrestling at the end of sammartinos career. Backlund was the champ I grew up with. First time I saw him, was tag teaming with Tony Garea and Dean Ho. In my opinion, Vince Sr made a huge mistake by not keeping the belt on Billy Graham. The superstar was larger than life with Iconic Charisma. Watch his old interviews, classic, talking about what colors he wears into the ring. Add to that, the Grand Wizard chiming in, just classic stuff. He then disappears, only to reinvent himself with a bald head and kung fu moves. He is on his last legs I hear. At his last show autograph show appearance, he thought he was going to die on the airplane gettinng there. Very interesting autobiography.
Like I said, you hear about the great old days, but go back and watch the tapes, Bruno could only get 2 inches off the ground for a drop kick and half the matches were face locks so they could rest. Watch some of the old ECW matches. Malenko vs Benoit. Move after move, counter move after counter move. Or Super Crazy vs Tajiri. Technical wrestling doesn't have to be boring. Mil Mascaras, Ultimo Dragon, Thunder Liger. Best example would be Scott Steiner. Back in the day, best move in wrestling, the frankensteiner. Now he just gets in the ring, poses and uses a clothesline.
Backlund came back and had some personality to add to his wrestling ability.
I gave up cheering for white hats and black hats a long time ago. Too many swerves and belt changes put a stop to that. Now you just wait for the swerve because you know ones comming.
Austin put it best when he asked a tough enough candidate " why should I reach into my wallet and fork over my hard earned money to come and watch you?" It was fun watching Austin from back in his Stunning days, to Ringmaster, to Stone Cold. His segments with Kurt Angle, classic.
Best thing i like about Flair and cena, they put passion in their performance. Flair still looks like he's going to burst an artery during an interview.
You know HHH secret desire, to win the championship more times than Flair. Now that he's married stephanie, just watch him win the belt, lose it the next week, then win it back, untill he breaks Flairs record.
There's an interview on you tube where Nash says wrestling is fake. Then their are a bunch of videos of wrestlers cursing out Nash for using the F word. Honky Tonk man also posts some good interviews were he curses everyone out.
I think the real old timers are pissed at the money the new guys are making. They lived paycheck to paycheck, skimping on meals, gas, lodging. Very few made really big money.
I loved the unpredictable Johnny Rodz. He always lost, but how he would lose was unpredictable.
Would I pay to see Hogan beat Bundy. No. However, put a bunch a mexicans on the undercard and I would pay. Thats what made ECW so great. Each match went out and tried to be better that the match before it. I don't need a purely technical wrestling match to enjoy it, but please bring more than 5 moves to the table. Or at least put on a show like the animal.


Offline shemps#1

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Why the anger shemps?

Who said I'm angry? I'm not angry at all. If I came off as angry I apologize. I read your first post and the first thing that stuck out at me was the "I hated Hogan" part so I figured I would come to Hogan's defense not to try to change your mind but to give some perspective. We are talking pro wrestling afterall, not the Olympics.

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If you enjoy Hogan, your're among millions. I just couldn't stand the same match week after week. A bundy splash eliminated every opponent, yet when it was used on hogan, he hulks up, fist fist, boot to face, leg drop. He had 4 moves, punch, clothesline, boot, leg drop. Yet he realized early its not about the moves, its about the charisma. I always thought Hogan was the reason the WWF destroyed Verne Gagnes promotion in MN. Who would you rather watch, a giant with a name like Hulk Hogan, or a wrestler by the name Nick Bockwinkle. Vince knew what he was doing.

Again, you are so obsessed with move sets. There are guys who have had more varied movesets than Hogan and were nothing more than glorified curtain jerkers and guys with even less of a move set (Ultimate Warrior) that went straight to the top. Movesets mean absolutely nothing in the big picture. I don't agree that every match was the same (the opponent has something to do with it) but let's for argument's sake say they were. So Hogan found a winning, MONEY formula. Look at Steve Austin; he was never the greatest technical wrestler but before Stone Cold he had a more varied moveset. It wasn't until he became Stone Cold, dropped about 90% of his moveset and his matches were "middle finger, Thesz Press, stomp a mudhole, middle finger, gut kick, stunner" that he became one of the biggest names in wrestling history. As far as the AWA goes I agree: Verne was one of those old school "pure wrestling" guys and if he couldn't put the belt on himself he would put it on someone like him (Bockwinkle). It was Hogan (who the AWA actually had then lost) being the right man at the right time as well as Vince Jr. having the right accumen that sunk AWA and all of the other territories. If Vince Jr. took over 6-7 earlier it might have been Superstar Billy Graham.


 
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I started watching wrestling at the end of sammartinos career. Backlund was the champ I grew up with. First time I saw him, was tag teaming with Tony Garea and Dean Ho. In my opinion, Vince Sr made a huge mistake by not keeping the belt on Billy Graham. The superstar was larger than life with Iconic Charisma. Watch his old interviews, classic, talking about what colors he wears into the ring. Add to that, the Grand Wizard chiming in, just classic stuff. He then disappears, only to reinvent himself with a bald head and kung fu moves. He is on his last legs I hear. At his last show autograph show appearance, he thought he was going to die on the airplane gettinng there. Very interesting autobiography.

As far as his interviews go Graham took a lot from Dusty Rhodes who took a lot from Muhammad Ali. Graham has to be the single most "copied from" man in the history of the business and it's a shame that Vince Sr. did not have same vision that his son had.


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Like I said, you hear about the great old days, but go back and watch the tapes, Bruno could only get 2 inches off the ground for a drop kick and half the matches were face locks so they could rest. Watch some of the old ECW matches. Malenko vs Benoit. Move after move, counter move after counter move. Or Super Crazy vs Tajiri. Technical wrestling doesn't have to be boring. Mil Mascaras, Ultimo Dragon, Thunder Liger. Best example would be Scott Steiner. Back in the day, best move in wrestling, the frankensteiner. Now he just gets in the ring, poses and uses a clothesline.

Bruno was able to tell a story in the ring despite his limited moveset. I remember a Malenko vs Benoit match during one of those PPVs WCW held at Sturgis: the crowd could care less and just wanted the match to end. They were there for Hogan, not to be put to sleep by two charismatic voids. WWE even gave Benoit a run at the top; how'd that go? Did Benoit sell any tickets or PPVs? No because despite his perceived technical ability in a pseudo-sport he had no charisma and most people didn't care about him. Now he will be known as "that asshole who killed his wife and son". What a piece of shit, and probably not the best name to bring up in a wrestling conversation with anyone who has their priorities straight.

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Backlund came back and had some personality to add to his wrestling ability.
Exactly. I never said "all technical wrestlers suck"; the ones who can't cut a promo, who don't have any charisma do especially when they are pushed to the top of the card when they shouldn't be.

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I gave up cheering for white hats and black hats a long time ago. Too many swerves and belt changes put a stop to that. Now you just wait for the swerve because you know ones comming.

The last thing in wrestling that genuinely surprised me was when Hogan turned heel and joined up Hall and Nash to form the nWo.

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Austin put it best when he asked a tough enough candidate " why should I reach into my wallet and fork over my hard earned money to come and watch you?" It was fun watching Austin from back in his Stunning days, to Ringmaster, to Stone Cold. His segments with Kurt Angle, classic.
Best thing i like about Flair and cena, they put passion in their performance. Flair still looks like he's going to burst an artery during an interview.
You know HHH secret desire, to win the championship more times than Flair. Now that he's married stephanie, just watch him win the belt, lose it the next week, then win it back, untill he breaks Flairs record.

I also think Hogan put passion into his performances, even if they were "wash/rinse/repeat". He didn't just come out of nowhere with Hulkamania handed to him, it took him years of refining and tweaking his act to get it down right. He also gave up his body for wrestling: that stupid leg drop you keep harping about cost him his hips and mobility. If it weren't for Hogan's passion the 80's boom might not have happened. As for HHH, I'm thinking (hoping) that his in ring days are mostly behind him and wouldn't be surprised if he never holds the belt again. I do think he has a desire to be remembered among the greats of all time but I think that history will not be kind.

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There's an interview on you tube where Nash says wrestling is fake. Then their are a bunch of videos of wrestlers cursing out Nash for using the F word. Honky Tonk man also posts some good interviews were he curses everyone out.
I think the real old timers are pissed at the money the new guys are making. They lived paycheck to paycheck, skimping on meals, gas, lodging. Very few made really big money.

Guys like Honky Tonk Man made lots of money but sadly pissed it all away.

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I loved the unpredictable Johnny Rodz. He always lost, but how he would lose was unpredictable.
Would I pay to see Hogan beat Bundy. No. However, put a bunch a mexicans on the undercard and I would pay. Thats what made ECW so great. Each match went out and tried to be better that the match before it. I don't need a purely technical wrestling match to enjoy it, but please bring more than 5 moves to the table. Or at least put on a show like the animal.

I loved the old ECW but let's be real; they were an Indy promotion that went for too much too soon. If I'm going with you that Hogan/Bundy card I'm snoozing or sneaking off to smoke a doob during the Mexican filled undercard and waiting in agony for Hogan/Bundy. I don't like Spot Monkeys no matter what their nationality and those Mexicans were nothing but Spot Monkeys. The way they would set up those spots were downright silly...the recipients standing around like doofuses while the guy performing the spot sets himself up then the recipients extending their arms out waiting for it. If a 200lb man jumped from 10 feet and landed on me I would be down for awhile...not these Mexicans! They got right back up and set up the next stupid spot. "High spot, high spot, high spot" is just as formulaic as you say Hogan's matches were. Give me the personalities at the top of card anytime over those guys: there was a reason they were at the top of the card afterall.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline shemps#1

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Also, put yourself in Vince's shoes in the mid 80's. Putting your personal preferences aside you had the acumen to see what the people wanted and that was Hulk Hogan. Your job now is set up opponents that could be considered viable threats to Hogan so people will buy the PPVs. Here comes King Kong Bundy, a "walking condominium" as Gorilla Monsoon so put it. You say to yourself "here is a guy the people would give pause to if he fought Hogan, he looks like a legit threat". So you put him out there and have him squash most everybody in his path, doing the Avalanche/Spash combo, making the ref count 5 instead of 3 etc. Now you set him up for the big match against Hogan, a guy who you have already set up as being the best out there. Wouldn't it not make sense to have Hogan kick out of the Bundy finish and give the fans what they want by having him do his Hulk Up routine? The fans always ate it up, just like they ate it up when he ripped his shirt and cupped his ear and posed. The little things he did, like communicating to the audience during the match, were absolutely unheard of at the time especially for a baby face. He was able to draw fans into the ring with him. He also knew more wrestling holds than he let on (still was not a technical great) and managed to have a stellar match with Ultimate Warrior, who for all intents and purposes was a clod in the ring. He gave the fans what they wanted so instead of blaming Hogan why don't you place the blame where it belongs, fans like me who ate that shit up right out of the palm of his hand.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline shemps#1

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Finally (for tonight) what is wrong with having a "spot" on the card that is not the top? Jake Roberts had a great career as a guy who was "upper midcard", not everybody should be main eventing and if more people saw that perhaps these titles wouldn't change hands so often.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline jesster64

I agree with a lot you've said. Liking or disliking Hogan is a personal preference. I'd love to meet him and get an autograph, but I would rather spend the day talking with a roddy piper or tommy dreamer. Hogans a multi millionaire and known around the world, so he knew what he was doing. His biggest mistake though was turning down an offer to promote a grill. He passed on it and George Foreman jumped at it. To me, Piper was the draw in the first wrestlemania. They say the Andre/Hogan match was one of the best of all time. Hogan pretty much had to carry andre, who could barely move by that time. Only move he had left was a chop or choke. Harley Race was the first person to slam Andre though.
I never liked Dusty Rhodes. His interviews never made any sense. Pretty much like calling himself the american dream. To me, thats as funny as Buddy Rose calling himself a playboy. In his book, he tries to take credit for a lot of things like entrance music.
yeah, sorry about benoit, he is a pile of crap. Add luger to that list too.
I'm on the fence about vince. He does put on a show twice a week for millions of fans for 40 years now. I think he should give the wrestlers more time off though. Time off to develope some new moves or heal. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. HHH's biggest ovation was when he came back from his leg injury. Vince demands him people wrestle though day after day, the show must go on. I think growing up, he idolized wrestlers and wanted to be one himself. But he became a promoter and with that he became the enemy of the wrestlers. Vince tries to get the most for his buck and wrestlers try and get away with anything. Owen harts widow has an interesting book about dealing with vince after the accident. Vince's first call was to his lawyer, then to her to tell her Owen was dead.
There are wrestlers you pay to see kick ass, there are wrestlers you pay to see to pose, there are divas you just pay to see. A good card has a little of each.
I'm not obsessed with move sets, I just get tired of seeing the same move match after match. The JJ guitar over the head, the 619, the worm. Tag teams like the dudleys , edge and christian keep comming up with new moves, new gimmicks like "wassup" or captain charisma. Even brett harts face first into the turnbuckle or flairs flip out of the ring becomes less entertaining the more they use it.  just my 2 cents.


Offline jesster64

some of the dumbest gimmicks have made me laugh, like the mean street posse. While others make me cringe, like dolph ziggler. They allready had a great porn star in val venis. I thought eugene was a fresh idea, an idiot savant who used old school holds. I miss the blue meanie and stevie richards. The Big Show just doesn't have the appeal of "the Giant". Ox Baker, mad dog vachon, Sgt Slaughter, etc.. I miss those guys.


Offline jesster64

And finally, there's nothing wrong with being mid card or even opening match. I remember the first time I saw the Hardy boyz open. You knew they were going to be good. Or the first time I saw Christian opening, I knew he had talent. 


Offline Lefty

The weekend is not long enough for me to comment on everything that's been posted on this thread recently, but having watched professional wrestling in its various forms for over 40 years, I can say the following:

In the olden days, there would be a face turn or a heel turn about every 2-3 years, mostly heel turns.  Now it's almost on a monthly basis.  So what's Kurt Angle this week?  Of course, today's crowds have no clue who to root for or against, whereas long ago, there were maybe 5 people in the arenas who would root for the villains (probably family members).

In years of yore, the good guys would generally hold the singles championship for years at a time, while the bad guys would hold the tag team titles about 3/4 of the time, for several months.  Now how many people hold the belts -- excuse me, "the championships" -- for 3 months nonstop?

Long ago, there were 2 TV shows, of which the bad guys won (always via squash) 6-7 of 10 matches per week, with a "main event" or "feature" match 2 or 3 times a year.  At least now, the good guys win a lot more than the bad guys do, and there are lots of matches without jobbers in them.  I prefer to see a match where I can't figure the outcome beforehand.

Way back when, a one-hour show would have about 30 minutes of wrestling time.  Now we're lucky to have that in a two-hour show.  And let's not forget that TNA disaster a few months ago that contained SEVEN (7) minutes of in-ring time, including James Storm's title win over Kurt Angle.  I wonder how the usual fans in the TNA building in Orlando felt about that?


Offline Lefty

One other thing for now:  Is it really necessary (mainly in TNA), to have the heels beat down the faces after the faces win a match?  If either or-guh-nye-zay-shun is trying this to get fans (or "The WWE Universe") to buy tickets to house shows, it ain't gonna work.  For that you need title changes at those shows.


Offline shemps#1

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The best dumb gimmick ever in my opinion is Akeem, which was yet another way for Vince to poke fun at Dusty. There's Akeem, Virgil, the polka dots and Sapphire once Dusty came in...Vince loved to take shots at Dusty. Akeem was 500lbs of hilarity and you owe it to yourself to check out the Twin Towers' Arsenio Hall appearance on YouTube.

It's funny you bring up Christian because they gave him a short title run not too long ago and the Internet marks were so pissed that he didn't have it longer. Christian is not a top level, main event guy and there is nothing wrong with that. He's good at what he does but is not need to be in the main event. If the Internet smarks and dirt sheet writers ran wrestling the business would die.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline shemps#1

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The main problem with TNA is they do most of their taping in front of the same crowd in Orlando that gets in for free. Leaving out the stuff about TNA's creative troubles, their audiences suck because they are so jaded and "smart" to the business. I will say that they do tag team and ladies wrestling better than WWE.

The "heel loses then beats the face down post match" thing is a very old crutch used to help the heel get some heat and keep a feud going. I hardly ever watch TNA (I find it to be terrible) so I can't comment on if they overdo it or not.

WW(W)F/E were the ones who started the whole "lead with a strong face" thing. All of the other territories and the NWA as a whole usually would put their belts on heels like Race and Flair and then cock tease the fans with close finishes in matches where the action was dominated by the face challenger only to have the heel champ pull out a win in the end. When a face would finally win the belt his run would be short and he often dropped it right back to the heel he beat (or would be used as a transitional champ from one heel to another). The idea was that there was more money in the faces chasing the heel.

When Vince Sr. Gorilla Monsoon et. al. broke off from the NWA they did so with the idea that "what works for the rest of the country doesn't work for New York City and the rest of the Northeast" and decided to keep their belt mostly on faces like Bruno, Pedro and Backlund. The idea was to have a strong champion face fight off the heel challengers. This flipped the script totally as now if the heel was a champ he had the short runs or was the transition to a new face (Koloff transitioned from Bruno to Pedro, Stasiak from Pedro back to Bruno, Graham from Bruno to Backlund and Sheik from Backlund to Hogan). There was even a push behind the scenes to turn Graham face during his title run and keep the belt on him instead of putting it on Backlund (from Vince Jr. and Graham) but Sr. wouldn't have it thinking Graham was too colorful to be a face champ.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown


Offline metaldams

The weekend is not long enough for me to comment on everything that's been posted on this thread recently

You ain't kidding brother.  Still good reading, and thanks for the posts guys, but man I envy some of the energy you guys have on this stuff. 

Jim, to respond to the Hogan three minute match, you're right, it's possible there was a curfew, however, we have no way of proving this either way.  The DQ in itself I'm not so bent out of shape over as this was two weeks before the Survivor Series where the Taker won and even the Flair/Hart match ended with Flair winning by count out, but if you're going to have a 3 minute match in the main event, at least make the outcome more interesting.  Hogan may have put asses in the seats, so he/the bookers should try their best to make sure those asses come home feeling like they got their money's worth. 

By the way, here's the Flair Vs. Hart match I saw, in case anyone's interested.  It's in three parts.  It's November 13, 1991, and if anybody can find record of a Flair Vs. Hart match before this, please let me know.  Until then, I'll say I was at their 1st encounter.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2a986_bret-hart-vs-ric-flair-wwf-intercon_sport

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2air1_bret-hart-vs-ric-flair-wwf-intercon_sport

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2aits_bret-hart-vs-ric-flair-wwf-intercon_sport


- Doug Sarnecky


Offline jesster64

Some people know baseball stats, I always followed wrestling growing up. I never understood Akeems change. Why change a great gimmick like One Man Gang into Akeem the african dream. Then again, I didn't understand Tony Atlas becomming saba simba. Vince went out of his way to humiliate Dusty. The polka dots was classic. I wonder if he continued with his son, turning him into goldust.
I tried watching WWE the other night. same old same old. More talking than wrestling. Usual run in to break up a match garbage.
Christian is not a main event guy, but he's entertaining. There's a clip somewhere of him doing an ultimate warrior impersonation thats pretty funny.
I see vincent/virgil all the time at autograph shows. How did this no talent guy stay in wrestling so long? He never wrestled.
I used to enjoy a website, wrestlecrap.com. They showed all the bad gimmicks through the years. goobledygooker, duke the dumpster drose, darrin puke drozdorf, xanta claus, etc..


Offline metaldams

Some people know baseball stats, I always followed wrestling growing up. I never understood Akeems change. Why change a great gimmick like One Man Gang into Akeem the african dream. Then again, I didn't understand Tony Atlas becomming saba simba. Vince went out of his way to humiliate Dusty. The polka dots was classic. I wonder if he continued with his son, turning him into goldust.
I tried watching WWE the other night. same old same old. More talking than wrestling. Usual run in to break up a match garbage.
Christian is not a main event guy, but he's entertaining. There's a clip somewhere of him doing an ultimate warrior impersonation thats pretty funny.
I see vincent/virgil all the time at autograph shows. How did this no talent guy stay in wrestling so long? He never wrestled.
I used to enjoy a website, wrestlecrap.com. They showed all the bad gimmicks through the years. goobledygooker, duke the dumpster drose, darrin puke drozdorf, xanta claus, etc..

I'm a HUGE wrestlecrap fan.

Saba Simba....I remember one time McMahon was saying something about him getting in touch with his African roots, and Roddy Piper, who was also announcing, calling it bullshit and saying that's Tony Atlas.

Dusty Rhodes WWF run was awful, with the polka dots and Sapphire, but he was older at that point anyway, no way he'd be a top guy.  Same with Harley Race as far as being older goes, though I think the king gimmick suited Race better than the polka dots did for Dusty.

I only grew up watching Race in the WWF and later managing Vader (who I'm a huge fan of) and Luger, I was too young to see his seven NWA reigns, but thanks to the magic of DVD, I saw his interviews leading up to the '83 Starrcade match with Flair, and he was damn good.  He never raised his voice, by he was totally intelligent and it legitimately sounded like he was going to kick your ass.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline jesster64

Unfortunately I never got to see Race before he joined the WWF at the end of his career. I read his book though and would have loved to see him in his prime. Thank You youtube.
I never really saw a lot of Flair either in his prime. I did get to see the 4 horsemen and they will always be my favorite group. I sat next to James J Dillon a few years ago at a charity banquet and didn't know what to say. I think he's a real estate salesman somewhere. I read his book too. He worked in the front office at WWF before getting a job with WCW. His first day on the job, nash,hall, and 123 kid pulled him aside and warned him not to reveal how much they were paid in WWF. Apparently they were getting 4 times that from WCW and didn't want them to know they were being over paid. He had a lot of enemies at WCW, I think dusty was one of them. According to his book, he basically just sat in an empty office and collected a paycheck.
The death of WCW was a good book. I remember when the whole wwe/wcw war was going on. I was flipping back and forth between channels like a madman when they went head to head. The NWO was genius, especially when Hogan turned. But after a while, everyone was in the NWO and it made no sense. Sting was supposed to be the savior of the WCW, but appearently he fullfilled his appearance obligation in his contract early and you rarely saw him wrestle. Then there was the time hogan beat up his brother and kicked him out of the NWO, again, it made no sense. Or I should say it made as much sense as virgil in a bandana calling himself a cowboy.
Right after the wars, I discovered ECW one night and re-discovered my love of wrestling. Fans from the audience handing weapons to wrestlers, classic. Joey Styles yelling "He's got a cheesegrater and he's using it on the other guys forehead' absolutely hilarious. Hot chicks, loyal fans, wrestlers who worked their butts off, story lines that you could follow. It was the best wrestling promotion I have ever seen. Japanese wrestlers, mexican luchidors, retired wrestlers, singapor canes, missy hyatt, shane douglas. It was a fun time. I highly recommend their DVD.
I remember Vader when he first came to wcw. He had the helmet from his japanese days. The story I hear was japan was looking for someone to be vader. It came down to leon white and the dingo warrior. Leon was more the sumo type, so they chose him while dingo went on the become ultimate warrior. Check out the youtube video of stan hanson vs vader where he supposedly knocks vaders eye right out of his head. Those 2 went at it! Japan eventually sued to get the helmet back from vader. It was pretty cool.
I could go on and on. remember the OZ gimmick. Then nash became vinnie vegas. He kept running around the ring in a ruffled shirt saying 'I'm vinnie vegas". It took vince to turn him into diesel, michaels body guard.


Offline Lefty

Another interesting thing is how it seems as though the champions have sub-.500 records in their non-title matches.  Obviously won/lost records are meaningless, although it wouldn't hurt to have anyone with a belt -- sorry, Vince -- "championship" -- win more often at least to look good.  When Pedro Morales was WWWF champion, his record at the Philadelphia Arena was 33-1-5 (title bouts and tag team matches), with that one loss being to Stan Stasiak in the title change on 12/1/73.  That merited a big article in the paper the next day -- "Stasiak Upsets Morales for Title on Arena Mats."


Offline Lefty

Programming note:  Smackdown will be live on SYFY at 8:00 EST from Rockford, IL, on February 21st.


Offline jesster64

I caught a little WWE on USA tonight. I like Jericho, isn't he probably the last wrestler still active that trained in the hart dungeon? I wish I had some footage of MAd Dog Buzz SAwyer. He had the best powerslam in the business. A real jerk in life though.


Offline shemps#1

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I caught a little WWE on USA tonight. I like Jericho, isn't he probably the last wrestler still active that trained in the hart dungeon? I wish I had some footage of MAd Dog Buzz SAwyer. He had the best powerslam in the business. A real jerk in life though.

Jim Neidhart's daughter Natalya trained in the Hart Dungeon; I believe she was the last student of Stu and the only woman. Now she's on Raw as the butt of stupid fart jokes and mostly jobbing to talentless saline containers.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." - Unknown