Topic: The Pro Wrestling Thread

[metaldams]

Before I start this one, I want to say I know wrestling is scripted and so does anybody else over the age of four.  If your only intent is to come into this thread and say wrestling is fixed and not a real sport...well, no duh.  I think that's been established a long time ago, so please spare us any of the "it's scripted" banality.  Like I said, we all know, it's simply a form of entertainment that appeals to some and not others.

OK, now that I got that out of the way, for those of us who do/did like wrestling, here's your chance to talk about it.  I was into wrestling for about 20 years, from the mid 80's through the mid 2000's.  I lost interest mainly because the characters just got less and less interesting.  These days, there are no real characters anymore, and everybody is an overly tattooed and overly roided bore.  When I was a wee lad, you had wrestlers of all shapes and sizes and personalities, and the storylines had a proper build up because there was not a pay-per-view every single month. 

I also lost interest because so many of the people I grew up watching died at age 40 of heart attacks, and it was then I realized how dangerous the lifestyle was.  These guys are sacrificing their bodies everynight without any off season (I'm a firm supporter of an off season in wrestling so guys can recover, but McMahon will never do that as long as there's money to be made).  The steroids, painkillers, and uppers to stay up on the road were very common and I am able to watch the old stuff with adult eyes now, where as kid I thought they were all supermen.  I was also a huge Chris Benoit fan, but that tragedy was WAY too much to take, and I can't believe there are people who still stick up for a guy who murders his wife and child.  I don't care how talented in the ring one is, I cannot overlook that.

All of this being said, as of late I have been watching the stuff I grew up with a lot on DVD.  The older I get, the more I understand nostalgia, and no doubt wrestling was a huge part of my life for 20 years.  I still love watching the Flair/Steamboat trilogy from 1989 and what DVD's I do have have been fun to revisit.  A friend of mine has WRESTLEMANIA 3 and we watched it this past weekend, it is what sparked this resurgance.

I can go on about the old stuff all day, but since I'm running out of time now, I'll have to go into more wrestling stuff later.  There are definitely a few DVD's I am eyeballing.  Any other current or former fans here besides Jim, who I already know is a fan and I'm sure will chip in this thread?>

[JazzBill]

MMA is killing wrestling. (and boxing) That's real blood those guys are spilling.

[metaldams]

MMA is killing wrestling. (and boxing) That's real blood those guys are spilling.

Believe it or not, pro wrestlers really do bleed (it's known as blading, where they take a small razor, insert it into a piece of tape on their fingers, and nick themselves with the blade).  But yeah, the match results are fixed and you're right, MMA has taken over in pop culture.

[JazzBill]

Believe it or not, pro wrestlers really do bleed (it's known as blading, where they take a small razor, insert it into a piece of tape on their fingers, and nick themselves with the blade).  But yeah, the match results are fixed and you're right, MMA has taken over in pop culture.

I'm sure wrestlers get hurt a lot too. They do a lot of jumping and flying around. They can't be landing right all the time.

[metaldams]

I'm sure wrestlers get hurt a lot too. They do a lot of jumping and flying around. They can't be landing right all the time.

Exactly, hence the steroids and painkiller addictions and the dozens of early deaths of the guys I grew up watching.  

The whole CTE/helmet to helmet controversey in the NFL is also there in wrestling and boxing, and I don't look at any of these things the same way that I used to as a kid.  These guys all take severe shots to the head and it catches up to people.

[shemps#1]

I thought you were one of those guys who was more into in ring "work rate" than characters. That's what I don't get about the internet wrestling "smarks", if a guy isn't flipping around the ring and gets over like a Hulk Hogan or a John Cena they shit all over him. If wrestling was nothing but Chris Benoit/Bret Hart/Brian Danielson types (guys who know a bunch of a different moves but have vanilla personalities) or masked 150 lb Mexicans it would put the audience to sleep. Pro wrestling is not an athletic competition although the wrestlers are athletes.

Speaking of tiny Mexicans, these internet dorks also shit on big guys. I'm not just talking about the roid ragers but the guys who are naturally big. It's bad enough that WWE tries to insult our intelligence by having a Rey Misterio beat a Kane when Kane's bowel movements are bigger than Rey; I get a little annoyed when these internet idiots automatically shit on a guy because he is 7 ft tall. I think the problem is that the WWE is following the internet a little too much which is why there is less of an emphasis on characters these days and everybody basically has the same look with minor variances.

Don't get me wrong, I still watch Raw (more out of loyalty to the product I have been following since 1983 than anything else) and TRY to watch TNA every once in a while (it's awful and you can't really blame Hogan when guys show up to PPV's drunk off their asses). I wouldn't say wrestling today is horrible, the early to mid 1990's "New Generation" era was certainly much worse than today's wrestling, but I think overall the wrestling scene has gotten stagnant. There is some good, like The Rock coming back to host Wrestlemania and going back and forth with John Cena and the Miz.

I also think WWE has an identity crisis: on one hand you see a "youth movement" with guys like Miz and Alberto Del Rio getting main events at Wrestlemania, but on the other you see HHH vs Undertaker instead of having those guys try to elevate some guys who could possibly be ready to be elevated. A young guy could be elevated even with a loss to Taker if done right.

I also have WWE Classics on Demand which is great and cheap and will be getting WWE All-Stars when it comes out in a couple weeks (obviously looking forward to the classic guys and not so much the current day guys).

[metaldams]

To show you how out of it I am, I have no clue who Brian Danielson is.

I've softened up a bit on the whole work rate thing.  While I still appreciate good workers (I want that Ricky Steamboat DVD set), and prefer guys have some ability in the ring, I do like the characters too.  The old me would've poo-pooed the Hogan/Andre match, but you know what, I was able to accept it for what it was when I saw it this past weekend - a match with a great build up, two legends, and two big guys.  Nothing wrong with that, and today, they would never have a champion of 4 years face a guy undefeated for 15 because the audience would not have the patience for such a build up.  We live in the days of 12 PPV's a year and main events on free TV.

But bottom line, Ric Flair had both work rate and an entertaining character, so to me, he's still the best.  

Oh, and the internet smark thing, I jumped off that ship long ago.

[shemps#1]

Brian Danielson is in the mold of a Chris Benoit; he can perform more moves than most, has no personality whatsoever and the internet smarks love him. That's really all there is to him.

Flair is one of the greatest of all time (even though I was never a huge Flair mark I can tip my hat to him) but I think he continually harms his legacy by not knowing when to hang them up. He should have retired when WCW went down at the latest and probably even sooner than that, but even after having a "retirement" match with Shawn "asshole" Michaels at WM he still gets in the ring on a semi regular basis. I understand he squandered his money but there are other ways he can be a part of wrestling without getting in the ring. It's really sad to see.

The Hulk/Andre match is in opinion the greatest match of all time. The build-up was second to none; I remember getting into heated debates at school with classmates who legitimately thought Andre would win. They told a great story in the ring which you NEVER see today, despite the fact that neither had an amateur wrestling background. On top of that you have to factor in that Andre was in agony thoughout that match and soldiered on (you can even hear Bobby Heenan trying to shout over the 93,000 people in crowd asking Andre if he was OK) and Hogan really tore his back on the body slam. It was a great match from start to finish and anyone who doesn't at least give it a mention when talking the greatest matches of all time is either an idiot or too young to remember when it all went down.

[metaldams]

The Hulk/Andre match is in opinion the greatest match of all time. The build-up was second to none; I remember getting into heated debates at school with classmates who legitimately thought Andre would win. They told a great story in the ring which you NEVER see today, despite the fact that neither had an amateur wrestling background. On top of that you have to factor in that Andre was in agony thoughout that match and soldiered on (you can even hear Bobby Heenan trying to shout over the 93,000 people in crowd asking Andre if he was OK) and Hogan really tore his back on the body slam. It was a great match from start to finish and anyone who doesn't at least give it a mention when talking the greatest matches of all time is either an idiot or too young to remember when it all went down.

While I wouldn't call it the greatest match of all-time, I can at least appreciate where you're coming from.  It was a great match, and they sure as heck did use great psychology with Hogan's back.

I don't what the greatest match is, but my favorite is the 1992 Royal Rumble because it's 60 minutes of Flair, a great cast of characters, and Bobby Heenan's best commentary ever.  Bobby Heenan was hysterical in that one the way he got behind Flair and just going crazy in general.

"Boy, fetch me a glass of water!"

[shemps#1]

The 92 Rumble was great. The problem is what happened after when they promised Hogan/Flair at WM and instead we got a Savage/Flair match where you can clearly see Flair cutting his head open (ruins the match completely for me) and Hogan/Sid which turned into a clusterfuck.

Also, Flair going 60+ has been diminished by a lot of wrestlers who have done it, including Rey Misterio. Did they really expect me to believe that a 150lb man (180 when juicing) would last the entire Royal Rumble? Why would someone pick him up and launch him like a javelin? Ridiculous.

[metaldams]

Jim, do you own any of the DVD's that are out, or do you just subscribe to the WWE's cable service?

I currently have these DVD's:

DEATH OF WCW
FOUR HORSEMEN
JAKE "THE SNAKE" ROBERTS (very good documentary, but man, his childhood is sad)
ULTIMATE WARRIOR (they bury him like crazy in this one)
RIC FLAIR (the first set with the white background, haven't gotten the 2nd set yet)
BRET HART
SUPERSTARS OF THE 80'S

[shemps#1]

I have both Hogan sets, Dusty Rhodes, Superstar Billy Graham, Vince McMahon, Greatest Managers and Superstars From the 80s.

[stooge1029]

Anyone watching wrestlemania this year? Im ordering for the first time in four years just because they actually got me carting about the matches this year. I want to see the Rock get involved in the main event and go after Cena, and Triple H/Taker should be a classic. If the Rock sticks around more than just a few weeks this year itll be a great thing for wrestling.

[metaldams]

I have both Hogan sets, Dusty Rhodes, Superstar Billy Graham, Vince McMahon, Greatest Managers and Superstars From the 80s.

Sounds like a cool collection.  Unless if things have changed the past few years, male managers have definitely died out, which is sad.  I miss the Bobby Heenan's, Jim Cornette's, Jimmy Hart's, Mr. Fuji's, Slick's, etc. etc. etc.

I have a friend who has the Hogan set without the documentary, so I plan to borrow that from him soon.  I do have a few Hogan matches from other DVD's, though.  

By the way, to show you how times have changed, when Koko B. Ware came out at WRESTLEMANIA III, Jessie Ventura goes, "You know what the B stands for, don't ya'?  Buckwheat."  If I were running against Jesse for political office, I'd use that against him.  

Oh, and the next DVD sets I'm eyeballing are the Steamboat one as well as the WCCW and AWA sets.  For the latter two, they were my 4:00 ESPN wrestling fix when I was a kid (yes, they used to show wrestling on ESPN), so I'm sure those sets will bring back memories.

The other Flair, the Mr. Perfect set, the Piper set all look great too, but I only have so much money.  There's always Christmas.

[metaldams]

Anyone watching wrestlemania this year? Im ordering for the first time in four years just because they actually got me carting about the matches this year. I want to see the Rock get involved in the main event and go after Cena, and Triple H/Taker should be a classic. If the Rock sticks around more than just a few weeks this year itll be a great thing for wrestling.

To show you how out of it I am, I forgot it's the time of year for Wrestlemania.  I couldn't even tell you who's champion.

Triple H and Undertaker are wrestling each other?  Geez, the more things change, the more they stay the same.  The Taker has had a hell of a career, it's his 20th year in the WWE and I even remember him in NWA/WCW before that as "Mean" Mark Callous.

[metaldams]

Ah, the wonders of the Internet.  I found a match I was at as a 12 year old that is actually available on VHS!  That person Flair was telling to shut up mentioned in this review could've been me.  I'll have to hunt this down.

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/bretflair91review.htm

Ric Flair Vs. Bret Hart 11/13/91

[Lefty]

I have watched wrestling of the professional variety for at least 4 decades now.  Way back when, instead of a monopoly (WWE) there were 3 entities (WWWF, NWA, AWA), with the McMahon family's territory being the northeastern U.S. (basically Washington DC to Portland ME), with the AWA in the Midwest and Mountain time zone, with the NWA owning the rest of the country with lots of little territorial areas.  Being in Philly, we had 2 WWWF shows on Saturdays, each hour-long show with 2 matches, an interview segment with 3 wrestlers (or the bad guys' managers doing the yapping), then 3 more matches.  There were about 25-30 minutes of wrestling time on each show, which is more than we get in 2 hours of today's programs -- and definitely more than the 9:30 or thereabouts in this past Thursday's TNA garbage.  Of course, in the olden days, the bad guys won 6-7 matches per week, all of which were squashes, while the good guys won their matches after a struggle.  Maybe once a month or so there would be a decent TV match.  Every few months there would be a women's match (with all of them wearing one-piece bathing suits) or a midgets' match.  TV tapings were held every 3 weeks, Tuesdays in Philly and Thursdays in DC, before that switched to Wednesdays in Hamburg PA in 1972.  In 1978, the shows from Philly were moved to Allentown PA.

[Lefty]

As for house shows, the Philadelphia Arena and the Boston Garden would own Saturday nights, alternating weeks, except that during the summer there would be one show per month, due to lack of air conditioning.  The big shows (not Paul Wight) were in Madison Square Garden each month on a Monday, or Saturday in the summer.  The vast majority of title changes were at MSG, except when the tag team title changes became a staple of TV starting in 1972.  Unlike today, where tag teams are an afterthought, those bouts were big back then, with most house show 4-man matches being 2-of-3 falls with an hour time limit, or 6-man matches being 3-of-5 falls with a 2-hour time limit, and one of those would always be the last match on a card unless there was a cage match.  The referees put up the cages, which took about 15 minutes, and the only way to win was by climbing out of the cage, as there was no door to escape through, and pins and submissions were not used. 

[metaldams]

I started watching wrestling just as the territories were dying out around late 1985.  I did watch AWA and WCCW like I said, but that was on ESPN and usually older matches.

Yes, I remember the squash matches.  As a kid, I only saw wrestling once live (a few times later as a teen and adult in the late 90's), and it was 1991.  Back then Saturday mornings was the big wrestling time, and the show was WWF SUPERSTARS.  It was held in New Haven, CT., 11/13/91, and they taped about a month's worth of episodes, which meant.....squash matches!  About 35 of them.  You'd see the same jobber get killed three times in the same night!  There were about five star matches on the card, with the main even being Hulk Hogan beating The Undertaker by disqualification in about 3 minutes.  After witnessing 35 squash matches, the crowd wanted a good main event and went home pissed that they got such a cheap match.  That was the night I started appreciating Flair more than Hogan.

Ric Flair wrestled two squash matches and a 20 minute classic with Bret Hart, which I just found out was on video back in the day.  My Dad took me, and he hates wrestling, but even he admitted that was by far the most entertaining match on the card.

I also saw the Legion of Doom wrestle The Natural Disasters, a masked Randy Savage beat Jake Roberts (this was when Randy was supposed to be retired, hence why he had to wear the mask), and Tito Santana wrestler The Berzerker in a match that was shown 10,000 times on television back in the day.

Lefty, you're lucky you got to see the territory days.  I love the era I gew up with, flaws and all, but the territories seem like a great time too and I would've seen them if I was just a few years older.

[Lefty]

Speaking of territories, during the 1970s we were able to see wrestling from Florida, with Gordon Solie commentating.  The show had tapings from a studio in Tampa, with at least one good match per week, and they showed highlights of matches from the Armory in Tampa as well.  Also, by turning the antenna around, I got New York channels, and the Spanish channel from Paterson NJ showed "Lucha Libre" from Los Angeles, where the only English was spoken by ring announcer Jimmy Lennon.

In 1972, when Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson was a 3-month old pebble, his father Rocky held the tag team championship with Earl Maynard, and they lost the titles to Lars Anderson and Paul DeMarco at a live show I attended in Las Vegas, the only time a title change ever took place that way.  (Seeing the original WrestleMania on closed-circuit TV from the old Spectrum doesn't count.)  There were no other live events the other 3 times I was in Sin City.  But in 1987, I was busy watching wrestling on TV during the one weekend there, with TEN (10) shows -- 2 each for WWF, AWA, NWA, WCCW, and UWF.

[metaldams]

But in 1987, I was busy watching wrestling on TV during the one weekend there, with TEN (10) shows -- 2 each for WWF, AWA, NWA, WCCW, and UWF.

Oh yeah, tell me about it.  Wrestling was on all over the place back then!  WWF had Wrestling Challenge and WWF Superstars as well as Prime Time Wrestling on Monday nights, but I was never allowed to stay up that late at that age.  NWA had the Saturday Night Show, the Sunday night main event 1 hour show and the Saturday morning Power Hour.  A year later, they started those free Clash of the Champions events every few months on prime time, which I always loved.  I remember UWF during the Herb Abrams days only (look up online about how he died, it's crazy), and the other two feds were my ESPN fix.  I'd watch any wrestling back then, I did not discriminate.  I even gobbled up all those Pro Wrestling Illustrated magazines too.

As for TNA, I watched maybe one or two episodes and was not impressed.  The one I saw involved an old Hulk Hogan and an even older Ric Flair in some kind of managerial role with some big guy who would gain some kind of mysterious powers because he wore Hulk Hogan's hall of fame ring.  I thought the whole show sucked and there was very little wrestling.  I have completely lost interest over the past 5 or 6 years of current wrestling.  I don't know if I've just grown up or if the product sucks, but if I watch the old stuff or talk about it like in this thread, and I'm a kid all over again.

The best thing about wrestling in the past 10 years is Stacy Keibler.  I find most of the divas to the plastic and interchangeable, but Stacy Keibler to me is one of the most beautiful woman on the planet. 

 

[shemps#1]

We did get to see the territory days, the tail end of them. We had WWF in the Northeast beginning their expansion, Crockett in the South, Von Erich out of Texas, Jarrett and Lawler in TN, AWA out west etc.

I really want TNA to succeed but there are so many terrible things going on there it's not even funny. Almost every show is taped in Orlando, and while that was fine back when I first started watching wrestling in 83 it doesn't cut the mustard today. They really need to switch up the venues for the tapings instead of having 99.9% in front of the same jaded internet smarks every show.

They also need more wrestling. I'm not one of those internet smarks who needs a 30 minute match of 140lb vanilla Ring of Honor guys nobody has ever heard of flipping around the ring but last week I couldn't get through a show. I made it through about 90 minutes, 1 of which was a "match" that consisted of one chick jumping her opponent from behind on the ramp before it began then pinning her in the ring. Talk segments and whatnot can be used to advance plots but an entire show of them will put me to sleep.

[metaldams]

We did get to see the territory days, the tail end of them. We had WWF in the Northeast beginning their expansion, Crockett in the South, Von Erich out of Texas, Jarrett and Lawler in TN, AWA out west etc.

They really need to switch up the venues for the tapings instead of having 99.9% in front of the same jaded internet smarks every show.

I started watching wrestling in late '85/early '86.  The first things I remember are watching The Killer Bees wrestle (they were the first match I ever saw, a very distinct memory), Bundy putting Hogan in the hospital, and Piper and Orton shaving the Haiti Kid's head on Piper's Pit.  You're right, the territory days were still there, but they were dying, as Wrestlemania and national WWF TV and live events have started, not to mention Rock 'n Wrestling and those big awesome rubber figures I had as I'm sure you had too (and as an aside, I had the AWA guys as well).  It's funny with those rubber figures, with my two year old nephew, we're taking out all the toys in my parent's attic my brother and I had for him to play with, and he's playing with those figures now.....not as much as me, of course.   

But that smark remark, that was me at one point, and I wonder if that's part of the reason why I lost interest, perhaps just getting tired of that whole scene.  It's like I fancied myself as some kind of expert at one point and ended up losing the enjoyment in the process.  But society in general is more jaded, it's in all entertainment. 

[shemps#1]

I had a shitload of those LJN figures, a ring and a steel cage accessory (wish I kept them).

I started watching in 83 when Bob Backlund was champ and I couldn't stand Bob Backlund because he was so fuckin' boring! He had the background and the "technical expertise" but big deal. The man was absolute Dullsville in the ring and on the mic. I was into guys like Rocky Johnson, Andre the Giant and my favorite wrestler when I first started watching: Jimmy Snuka. These guys had personality, charisma and were larger than life as opposed to the charismatic void that was Backlund. Whenever Backlund came on I completely lost interest and was even happy when Iron Sheik took the belt from him.

When Hulk Hogan came around he was breath of fresh air from the stale Backlund. He was everything that Bob was not and I loved him for it. He was big enough to have it be believable that he could beat the Big John Studd types but not too big so that the Roddy Piper types couldn't give him a run for his money. Hogan had an innate ability to draw a crowd into a match that other had before him and have had since BUT I don't think anyone had as much of. Some complain that he was formulaic, and perhaps he was. However his formula was a winning formula and despite not being great "technically" (whatever that's worth in a "sport" that isn't a sport) he had a lot of fantastic matches.

Which brings me to my point about internet fans. They would be happy with a bunch of Bob Backlund clones and if they were in control of WWE it would go under within a year. Wrestling isn't so much about the athletics and moves as it is about the characters; the characters are what brings in the money. They love to brag about how "great" Ring of Honor is and how many tapes from Japan they have and rate and nitpick every match but remember this: every year ROH gloms off of Wrestlemania Weekend by holding a tiny show in a small venue nearby. Do you see WWE doing that at whatever ROH's event is?

[metaldams]

I only saw mid-90's Backlund, but man, you gotta love his character then, just for the "eating marajuana" line alone!