The Pro Wrestling Thread

shemps#1 · **Reply #75 on:** June 04, 2011, 12:25:59 AM

Whilst I mix up my Metamucil I'll regale of the days before Pay Per View. You remember the days of four Pay Per Views you say? Balderdash! I remember when if you wanted to watch WrestleMania you had to watch on Closed Circuit. You had to find a theater that was running the show and watch with a bunch of strangers like you at a movie. And it was only WrestleMania (and perhaps Starcade might have run in my area but probably not and if it did I didn't care because unlike Doug I was WWF all the way and thought about Crockett, AWA and the others as minor league jabrone feds); Pay Per View was the outlet to bring about Survivor Series, Summerslam and the others. Closed Circuit was too much of a pain in the ass, too costly to the company and not as user friendly as PPV. With PPV the company wasn't restricted to how many people could watch the show and the viewer didn't go out to a theater but could watch at home instead. And I wasn't incontinent back then either!

I think a couple of factors took away from the "luster" of pro wrestling for me. One was the fact that I got older. Then when Vince admitted it was "fake" to get by the Jersey laws they eventually started breaking kayfabe on TV and practically throwing the fact that you were not watching a sport in your face. That kinda made me feel a little ashamed to watch it, not to mention having to deal with even more non-wrestling fans coming up to me and saying "you know that shit is fake right?" like they are some kind of MENSA genius and I must be some sort of retard for watching it.

Finally, and perhaps most of all, the internet has played a big roll. It has spawned the Internet Wrestling Community (IWC) an intolerable bunch of dorks who think you're not really a true fan if you like Hogan and don't care for the flavor the month (now that Danielson guy) who is usually very small and void of personality and don't go out of your way to watch Ring of Honor or some obscure Japanese shit. I never thought I would have to deal with elitist, pretentious dickwads when dealing with wrestling fans. Also, the advent of spoilers has not helped. Many is the time when I have read spoilers instead of watching Smackdown or TNA.

metaldams · **Reply #76 on:** June 04, 2011, 09:38:09 AM

Quote from: falsealarms on June 03, 2011, 11:58:16 PM

I definitely remember the Hogan era, but my most vivid memories are of the end of it.... i.e, the 1993 King of the Ring. I followed wrestling prior to that (tail-end of the 80's) but I was too young to remember most of the specifics of that stuff now. I was only 7 going on 8 when Hogan departed in 1993... 1993-1997/8 is what I remember most.

Not that you can help it as you were born in 1985, but you missed out on a great era. Of course, there's probably somebody 7 years older than me that will talk about all the great stuff I missed too.

Quote from: falsealarms on June 03, 2011, 11:58:16 PM

Seeing clips of those old PPVs on YouTube etc is interesting. Being an only child, I got my way with a lot of things, but never could get my parents to buy the PPVs. I can remember trying to watch some of them through the fuzziness of a blacked out PPV channel.

Seriously, I thought I was the only person in the world who had parents who wouldn't order the PPV's and opted to "watch" them through the squiggly lines. Hey, at least I got to hear the commentary OK. That's awesome you said that, what memories I have of doing that. Jim may have been WWF only, but I didn't discriminate to the point where I even watched the early 90's UWF PPV, the Herb Abram's version, through the squiggly lines! There's something for you young folks to google. Jim, pass the Metamucil.

Oh, and as for there being too many PPV's, agree 100%. The glory days were definitely four PPV's, and King of the Ring being added as a fifth was OK too, but after that, things went overboard with the monthly PPV crap. This started during the Monday Night Wars, as both companies needed to compete. They figured more PPV's = more money, but the problem is you had so many matches crammed down your throat there were no more special build ups. Simply a case of too much of a good thing.

metaldams · **Reply #77 on:** June 04, 2011, 09:48:24 AM

Quote from: shemps#1 on June 04, 2011, 12:25:59 AM

Finally, and perhaps most of all, the internet has played a big roll. It has spawned the Internet Wrestling Community (IWC) an intolerable bunch of dorks who think you're not really a true fan if you like Hogan and don't care for the flavor the month (now that Danielson guy) who is usually very small and void of personality and don't go out of your way to watch Ring of Honor or some obscure Japanese shit. I never thought I would have to deal with elitist, pretentious dickwads when dealing with wrestling fans. Also, the advent of spoilers has not helped. Many is the time when I have read spoilers instead of watching Smackdown or TNA.

When I went to college in the late 90's, I got caught in the IWC crap, and I'm glad I've since bailed out. The thing is there were five or six other guys in the dorm who were on board with me, as wrestling was so popular at the time. I do appreciate guys who are good workers, I see nothing wrong with that, but have come to appreciate the characters of my youth the older I get as well instead of being ashamed to admit it. Wrestling has several different things to offer, and there's no reason why one aspect should be considered superior.

The worst IWC fans are the ones who still praise Chris Benoit. Even Chris Jericho has publically stated he can't watch his matches with Benoit in light of what happened, yet these IWC dorks somehow feel we should ignore him murdering his wife and child when watching his matches. Never mind the fact that swandive headbutt of his may have contributed to his condition and these fans still worship watching that move. It's disgusting.

As for spoilers, you're also right about that. When I was a kid, my local newspaper ran a free wrestling hotline, and it was an early version of the Internet in a way as far as wrestling goes. I found out Money, Inc. defeated the LOD for the tag titles through this hotline a few weeks before it was on TV, and that was a big deal back then. Today, spilers are so common you wouldn't blink twice about finding out results so soon.

shemps#1 · **Reply #78 on:** June 04, 2011, 01:23:36 PM

I agree wholeheartedly. I can appreciate a good worker but someone who a 5 in work rate and has charisma and is comfortable on the mic is much more entertaining than someone who is a 10 in workrate and has no charisma and stumbles over his words. Ric Flair, who is perhaps best "total package" wrestler of all time (Hogan himself called him the best wrestler ever) would have gotten anywhere near the status he did if all he could was work.

Putting the double murder/suicide aside for a moment (as hard as that is to do) Benoit was one of those IWC darlings that because of the IWC I grew to resent when if the IWC were not a factor I would not have thought much about him either way. He had the charisma and charm of a bowel movement and the mic skills of a cave man. The IWC crowed on and on about how great he was to the point where he was pushed to win one of the belts. The IWC is like those ultra religious Republicans: a very loud minority trying to make it appear as if they are a majority. When reality hit and Benoit was not putting asses in seats and not bringing in good TV ratings he dropped the belt to Orton (who is not much better) and they threw a tantrum. When you add the double murder/suicide and it is sickening that anyone would still celebrate what this bonafied mid-carder did in the ring. It doesn't matter, "killer" should be the first thing to come to mind and that should be the end of the story. Everytime those IWC smarks who still love Benoit see their hero the only thing they should see is Woman and their child.

falsealarms · **Reply #79 on:** June 04, 2011, 01:45:18 PM

I missed the IWC. By the time I got the internet in 1999, my interest in wrestling pretty much was over with. Doesn't seem like something I'd have enjoyed, anyway.

Speaking of hotlines, I remember the Pro Wrestling Illustrated Hotline and magazines like Pro Wrestling Illustrated, WWF Magazine, etc. These were always sought after back in the day, especially since I didn't have the internet at time. One of the magazines did power rankings which I always found interesting and there used to be an annual publication of the top 500 wrestlers... I think PWI did that.

For those who saw the PPVs (lets say from 85-98), any stand out? I saw some via Coliseum Home Video, i.e WrestleMania 10... that always was a favorite. WM 9 wasn't bad for me at the time, though looking it up now, it seems like most rank it near/at the bottom of all of the WMs. Summerslam 92 stands out, as does Royal Rumble 93, King of the Ring 94.

Some of the WCW stuff was memorable too, like those events they did in Sturgis SD... Hog Wild, I think.

shemps#1 · **Reply #80 on:** June 04, 2011, 02:26:41 PM

The early WrestleManias stand out for me, mainly because of the long build up the key matches got. If the first WrestleMania was a flop then you wouldn't have the others and you'd have to understand how much of a mega star Mr. T was to know how much of a big deal it was to get him to agree to work the match. I loved watching those segments with Hogan and T and even stayed up late to watch them on Saturday Night Live. III will always be the best WM in my opinion: the build up for Hulk/Andre was phenomenal and I vividly remember getting into heated debates at school as most people thought Andre would take the title. When they made the bigger belt to fit around Andre's waist it was a stroke of genius, as was the hole Andre heel turn on Piper's Pit where he rips Hogan's shirt and cross off. Piper was uncharacteristically subtle here, only saying to Hogan "you're bleeding" afterwards which was perfect and got the gravity of the situation over. Then you also had Savage/Steamboat which began when Mach' injured Ricky's larnyx and Piper/Adonis and the Piper's Pit/Flower Shop battle. Adrian was awesome as a demented, more flamboyant George (or someoneone who ate Gorgeous George). Those three matches alone were worth the price of the PPV.

VI stands out for the Hogan/Warrior match, which was off the charts. I was pissed beyond belief when Warrior won because I didn't think he belonged at the top or deserved to beat Hogan and history has proven me right. IX was awful, there wasn't a decent match, the crowd was dead except for when Hogan was in the ring and I was none too happy that Gorilla Monsoon was being pushed to the background. X was a little better but not much. The ladder match was vastly overrated and started a terrible trend of overuse and of course it was the New Generation which sucked balls. XI might be the worst WM ever and I saw that one live unfortunately. Everything about that one was a steamy pile of horseshit from Team Brokeback (at least they lost) to Diesel (HONK, I'm a truck!) and HBK to insufferable douchebag Todd Pettingill to LT. XVII stands out to me due to magnitude of the Hogan/Rock main event. The way that the crowd went from 60/40 Hogan to 95/5 Hogan was remarkable and both wrestlers were good enough to adjust on the fly. That match should have gone on last as the crowd was spent and couldn't care less about HHH/Jericho.

As for other PPVs the first two Survivor Series' were awesome. I always loved the team elimination concept and watching as the wrestlers dwindled down. The first few Royal Rumbles were great too until they started regularly having guys going over an hour to win it. When shrimpy Rey Misterio lasted the entire match to win I was disgusted as I was grown by then and just kept thinking that if this were real one of the other wrestlers could easily pick him up and chuck him like a dart.

metaldams · **Reply #81 on:** June 04, 2011, 02:57:33 PM

You know, I don't really have a favorite PPV, but I can tell you my favorite time period in wrestling was NWA/WCW 1989 - Ric Flair. Seriously, Ric Flair in 1989 was at his absolute peak. Things were stagnating because the Four Horsemen broke up, but then Steamboat came along and they had those three classic matches, Chi Town Rumble '89, Clash of the Champion 6 (2 out of 3 falls), and Wrestle War '89. Three great matches in a span of 3 months. False, definitely check out those three matches if you haven't already, you won't be disappointed. Then after Flair beats Steamboat at Wrestle War, it segues into another classic feud between Ric Flair and Terry Funk, and the I Quit match they had was another classic. Sting and Great Muta got invlved in that feud as well and there were many awesome matches.

I remember I was very disappointed I couldn't see Wrestlemania V at the time (Hogan Vs. Savage), but Clash 6 was the same day and my friend taped it off television. We watched that Flair Vs. Steamboat match more times than I can count, the chops and the energy of the match blew us away, and the ending was brilliant.

My only complaint about this whole time period is that after steamboat lost the title to Flair, they stuck him in a mediocre feud with Lex Luger, then he disppeared. Steamboat only had a 6 month contract and it didn't get renewed. So with that in mind, everything I said in this post sums up what was both great and frustrating about WCW.

falsealarms · **Reply #82 on:** June 04, 2011, 06:40:39 PM

The whole idea that the "New Generation" wasn't that good, especially in comparison to what preceded it, isn't a sentiment I remember at that time. Maybe because the friends I had who liked wrestling were the same age as me and were too young to remember the mid/late 80's - early 90's. All these years later now that I've looked at modern-day reviews etc... to hear the "New Generation" era get dumped on surprised me. I can remember arguing if the WWF was better than the WCW or ECW, but so much if the mid 90's generation was inferior/superior to the one before it. Maybe I was too young to know otherwise. I remember seeing the New Generation stuff as it happened, the stuff before that was mostly exposed to me through Coliseum Video, taped VHS etc.

Shemps might like this guy, who calls WM 11 the worst of them all... "insanely shitty," the guy opines. At the time, I was likely intrigued by it.

[youtube=425,350]HBYXNMFBok8[/youtube]

shemps#1 · **Reply #83 on:** June 04, 2011, 07:13:29 PM

I was there and I wish I wasn't. For instance, they had Salt-N-Pepa rap LT to the ring and I remember a LOT of boos for them (and joined in). Every single match on the card sucked without remorse and that was the general sentiment amongst the crowd as we were filing out. If there was anything wrong with this guy's review it's that he was too soft on it.

falsealarms · **Reply #84 on:** June 04, 2011, 07:32:48 PM

At the time, I remember thinking it seemed strange that LT was involved at all... other guys, like Ken Norton Jr (NFL player) were there too, and it seemed kinda strange. It wasn't a great storyline. Apparently, Bob Backlund was on the card that night... I remember him being pushed pretty big at the time. I never cared much for him.

I always liked Shawn Michaels, at least until D-Generation X formed. That was the beginning of the end of my wrestling days. Michaels fought Diesel for the WWF Championship at WM 11.... I can also recall a clip years earlier where Michaels threw Jannetty through a barbershop window.

shemps#1 · **Reply #85 on:** June 04, 2011, 08:03:37 PM

That was on The Barber Shop, one of the many Piper's Pit knock-offs over the years that was hosted by Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake. Michaels was always an egotistical prick who outwardly buried other wrestlers that he did not care for (see the Summerslam match with Vader) and at one point handed the IC belt over instead of dropping to Shane Douglas like he was supposed to. It was then that I lost any modicum of respect for Mr. Hickenbottom as a performer and a person. Unless you have creative control clause (of which I think only Hogan had in his later years and it was not a full clause) you are there do what whatever the person who signs your checks tells you. Michaels refused to do that, instead "losing his smile". Much better performers than him, much bigger stars, had no problems doing jobs. I put Michaels in the same category as Ultimate Warrior: a person who thought he was bigger than he really was and wasn't afraid to tell anyone within ear shot.

In other words, fuck Shawn Michaels.

As for Backlund, he was the WWF Champion when I started watching and was absolutely vanilla, much like Brian Danielson is today. He had no charisma, no character and no real appeal but Vince Sr. liked him because he was a good worker. Hulk Hogan was a breath of fresh air compared to the dull Backlund. Hogan represented a new wave in wrestling while Backlund was a stale throwback. The Backlund of the mid 90's was more entertaining as he became a heel and had the looney gimmick but would have been better served as a manager than as a wrestler. He might have had a personality this time around but his matches were still boring.

The NFL guys weren't the worst of it: Bam Bam (who I give props to for working his ass off in that much, it didn't suck due to his lack of trying) was accompanied by the lamest heel stable perhaps ever: The Million Dollar Corporation. It's a toss up between them and Nexus/The Corre.

metaldams · **Reply #86 on:** June 05, 2011, 01:43:02 AM

Forgive me for going Boid Brain on you guys here, but this one's at least part of the topic. The best thing about the "New Generation" era was.....

Best "diva" of all-time along with Miss Elizabeth. A good character to go along with the looks. Today all the divas are interchangeable to me, or at least were when I stopped watching.

As for Wrestlemaina XI, I gotta be honest, outside of L.T. Vs. Bigelow, I can't remember a match on that card without doing a Google search.

falsealarms · **Reply #87 on:** June 05, 2011, 02:55:43 AM

Sunny!

These guys go on for 33 minutes about the New Generation -

[youtube=425,350]h7N_TtUN6Es[/youtube]

One guy mentions how a video of Sunny was on and how he hadn't seen anything like that in the WWF before... 15 minutes in.

shemps#1 · **Reply #88 on:** June 05, 2011, 12:35:28 PM

I watched about half of it, they don't talk about New Generation so much. It's more about the Attitude era.

falsealarms · **Reply #89 on:** June 05, 2011, 01:19:58 PM

It looks like a "Best of Monday Nitro" box set is coming out this week. I have fond memories of that show, though I was always more of a WWF guy. The Monday Night Wars made for a great time to be a wrestling fan, at least for the first couple years.

falsealarms · **Reply #90 on:** June 05, 2011, 02:07:26 PM

Speaking of ladies of wrestling, Sable and Marlena weren't bad, either. On the other end of the spectrum were Chyna and Luna Vachon.

shemps#1 · **Reply #91 on:** June 05, 2011, 02:14:32 PM

When it was a real dogfight the Monday Night Wars were awesome. It was great to see Vince have some competition that wasn't afraid to take the fight right to him. I think it went downhill when Vince Russo jumped ship to WCW and they gave him free reign. WCW became unwatchable and it was more like a slaughter than a dogfight.

I've tried to watch some of the old Nitros and Raws on WWE Classics On Demand and they just don't hold up as well as the old Prime Time Wrestlings, TNTs or regional shows from Crockett and Texas and the like.

As for the women, Sunny was gorgeous and I think it's a toss up between her and Elizabeth for most beautiful valet. Sable was a bit too plastic looking for my taste and Marlena I was never really into. Lita was cute but I didn't care for the pseudo-punk thing (nor the gaudy arm tattoo).

Just saw a clip of Chyna's new porn last night. The clip was about 4 mins and I lasted 90 seconds before I had enough. She was performing a "standing 69" where the rather muscular and well-endowed gentlemen was holding her upside-down.

metaldams · **Reply #92 on:** June 05, 2011, 06:08:03 PM

Quote from: shemps#1 on June 05, 2011, 02:14:32 PM

The clip was about 4 mins and I lasted 90 seconds before I had enough.

Nah...too easy.

From a pure looks point of view, my favorite diva is Stacey Keibler. I thought Ivory was pretty hot too, as was Molly Holly.

But Miss Elizabeth and Sunny both were gorgeous and had great wrestling characters, a rarity.

While I was a big fan of the Monday Night war era and still like it to an extent, I agree the stuff from my childhood holds up better. Part of it was because so much of that era was so Chris Benoit oriented for me, but the whole ironic/wise ass DX - NWO attitudes haven't aged well. Austin Vs. McMahon was great as was The Rock. I also have a lot of respect for The Rock. He has made something of himself outside of wrestling and didn't hold on too long like 99% of other wrestlers do.

metaldams · **Reply #93 on:** June 05, 2011, 06:48:44 PM

Quote from: shemps#1 on June 05, 2011, 02:14:32 PM

Just saw a clip of Chyna's new porn last night. The clip was about 4 mins and I lasted 90 seconds before I had enough. She was performing a "standing 69" where the rather muscular and well-endowed gentlemen was holding her upside-down.

All kidding aside, what a freaking train wreck she is.

falsealarms · **Reply #94 on:** June 05, 2011, 07:14:26 PM

I remember debating with friends in the mid 90's if Chyna was really a man.

shemps#1 · **Reply #95 on:** June 05, 2011, 07:16:48 PM

I knew that there was no way I could comment on a Chyna porn without looking foolish, no matter how I worded it. It was really dumb of her to do that porn, especially after TNA had just given her another chance in wrestling. Keibler is definitely hot too, Molly and Ivory not as much.

metaldams · **Reply #96 on:** June 05, 2011, 07:39:17 PM

Quote from: shemps#1 on June 05, 2011, 07:16:48 PM

I knew that there was no way I could comment on a Chyna porn without looking foolish, no matter how I worded it. It was really dumb of her to do that porn, especially after TNA had just given her another chance in wrestling. Keibler is definitely hot too, Molly and Ivory not as much.

The sad thing about Chyna is that she at one point tried to sell herself as an alternative role model to young girls, and she turned into a drugged out freak who does porn.

metaldams · **Reply #97 on:** June 05, 2011, 08:20:43 PM

Look at Okerlund's reaction. This is hysterical!

[youtube=425,350]oEIzkLr7JzQ[/youtube]

falsealarms · **Reply #98 on:** June 06, 2011, 01:30:11 AM

I can't believe how many wrestlers from my days as a fan have died... some I knew about, others I didn't until recently. Owen Hart (who I always liked) and Brian Pillman I can remember dying back in the day, but so many others.... more than you'd expect... it wasn't like I was a fan 30, 40, 50 years ago.
Sad -

[youtube=425,350]SrrsqOahSRA[/youtube]

25% of the performers from WM 7 are dead... and there's others, like Bam Bam Bigelow, Yokozuna, Luna Vachon, Sensational Sherri, Chris Candido, Ludwig Borga, Chris Benoit (everyone heard about that), Giant Gonzales, etc

metaldams · **Reply #99 on:** June 06, 2011, 01:51:38 PM

False, the cosuin I mentioned earlier in the thread knew Chris Candido and was telling me how Candido had turned his life around. A few weeks after him telling me this, Candido was dead. Candido's death shocked me so much because of that. It appears that Candido went on a plane shortly after having leg surgery, causing a blood clot, which is obviously very tragic.

Through the wonders of youtube, I have discovered "Dr. D" David Schultz. Check out his wikipedia page, interesting story about him, but he left WWF shortly before I started watching. This guy was hysterical, as evidenced by the clip I posted above and one I will post tonight once I have youtube access. I think he's my new hero.