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If Larry Fine was born in Philadelphia . . .

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garystooge:
I dunno Doc, I don't think you're ever going to get the answers you're looking for.   If Larry does indeed have a New York or non-Philadelphia accent, we could only speculate as to why. BTW it seems that you're primarily hanging your hat on the Wikipedia article which seemingly states that no Philadelphians drop their r's.  I don't know about you, but if I went into battle with Wikipedia as my only artillery I'd feel rather unarmed.  In fact, if you look at their discussion thread instead of the primary listing, you'll see that there is complete disagreement over what constitutes the "Philly Sound'.

Dr. Hugo Gansamacher:

--- Quote from: garystooge on December 16, 2010, 12:59:22 PM ---I dunno Doc, I don't think you're ever going to get the answers you're looking for.   If Larry does indeed have a New York or non-Philadelphia accent, we could only speculate as to why. BTW it seems that you're primarily hanging your hat on the Wikipedia article which seemingly states that no Philadelphians drop their r's.  I don't know about you, but if I went into battle with Wikipedia as my only artillery I'd feel rather unarmed.  In fact, if you look at their discussion thread instead of the primary listing, you'll see that there is complete disagreement over what constitutes the "Philly Sound'.

--- End quote ---

I take your point, but I used the Wikipedia article simply because it is convenient. I have studied dialectology a fair bit, using those old paper things that you find on shelves . . . what do you call them . . . books! Yes, I have read books about American accent regions, and all the ones that I remember place Philadelphia in a rhotic (non-"r"-dropping) region. Now, it is possible that these sources have all been in error, or that I am misremembering what I have read, but it would be very surprising to me and would require explanation in its own right. That is why I have been trying to get information from people who might have first-hand knowledge of the matter. So far, Lefty has been the only one able to offer that, though his reply was somewhat, shall we say, indirect.  ;)

garystooge:
I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about dialectology.  I can tell that you're way more well-versed in that area than I am. If you're familiar with the rock group, Rush, a lot of people think their lead singer, Geddy Lee, sounds like a woman.  If you mention that to a Rush fan, they couldn't possibly be surprised...they surely have heard that over the years. But as I mentioned in another post, in over 30 years of hardcore Stooging, I've never heard anyone insist or even intimate that Larry had a New York accent.  I don't recall anyone in this thread agreeing that he had one either.  Therefore I'll continue to maintain that he doesn't have one.  And whatever accent Larry does have (be it New York, Philly or whatever), how would we today be able to conclusively prove its origin?

Dr. Hugo Gansamacher:

--- Quote from: garystooge on December 16, 2010, 01:39:15 PM ---But as I mentioned in another post, in over 30 years of hardcore Stooging, I've never heard anyone insist or even intimate that Larry had a New York accent.  I don't recall anyone in this thread agreeing that he had one either.  Therefore I'll continue to maintain that he doesn't have one.  And whatever accent Larry does have (be it New York, Philly or whatever), how would we today be able to conclusively prove its origin?

--- End quote ---

I don't insist that it is a New York accent: I do insist that there is a puzzle about how it could be a Philadelphia accent. I have identified specific features that his pronunciation shares with a New York accent, and I have asked: are these features found in any Philadelphia accents? If they are, then the problem is solved: his accent is a Philadelphia accent (if perhaps one that is no longer common), and my understanding of the differences between Philadelphia and New York accents has been mistaken. But so far, no one has supplied me with any definite information on that point.

To answer your rhetorical question: You determine the origin of an accent by finding the place in which people have that accent. (If someone from New York adopts a southern-Californian accent, say, then the origin of the accent lies in southern California, even if the origin of the person does not.) In the present case, we have the handicap that we are dealing with someone who grew up more than a hundred years ago, and the prevalent accents of locales have changed a lot since then: local features like "r" dropping have been giving way to non-regional ones. But the fact is that such features survive at least among a minority of speakers, notably among older ones, in every locale. So if Larry Fine's accent was a typical Philadelphia accent a hundred years ago, then its distinguishing features would still be found in the speech of some natives of the city, if only elderly ones.

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