General Boards > Questions and Answers
If Larry Fine was born in Philadelphia . . .
Dr. Hugo Gansamacher:
--- Quote from: JazzBill on December 15, 2010, 05:51:19 PM ---Out of the Stooges I always thought Curly had the most noticeable accent.
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--- Quote from: Liz on December 15, 2010, 10:55:54 PM ---I did a project on this for my Linguistics class (not solely on this. It was on all the Stooges and on Laurel & Hardy) which I just presented yesterday. My partner/good friend and I were researching the dialectology of the Stooges and of Laurel & Hardy. We confirmed that Larry had an accent because he is from relatively the same part of the country as were Moe, Curly, and Shemp.
And Bill, are you sure? Moe's accent is pretty pronounced!
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Both of them like to "moider" the King's English, as Curly accuses Moe of doing in Higher Than a Kite. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. :laugh:
"We confirmed that Larry had an accent": there's nothing to confirm; everybody has an accent. The only difference is in how much one person's accent differs from someone else's.
--- Quote from: JazzBill on December 15, 2010, 11:58:09 PM ---I guess its a matter of opinion Liz, to me it seems like Curly had a more distinct accent. I do agree with your area of the country concept though. I can usually spot if a person is from the midwest or the east coast or south etc. But it's hard to pick out the exact city.
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Of course, that is just the present question---picking out the exact city. My sources say that deletion of /r/ after vowels is not part of Philadelphia speech, but Larry, like the Howards, very often drops /r/ after vowels. This is what makes him sound "Noo Yawk" to me. So did he acquire a New York accent, or are my sources concerning Philadelphia accents mistaken?
garystooge:
--- Quote ---So did he acquire a New York accent, or are my sources concerning Philadelphia accents mistaken?
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Given these 2 options, I' d choose "b"....your source regarding Philadelphia accents is mistaken.
My feeling is that there is no textbook definition of a standard Philadelphia accent. I've only noticed a few words and phrases that are a definite tip-off that someone is from Philly:
1.referring to more than one person as "yuz" as in "yuz guys" (I think this is the equivalent of M-J's Pittsburghian "yinz"
2.asking for a glass of "wooder" (water)
3.ordering a hoagie (known as subs, grinders, etc elsewhere)
4.rooting for the "Iggles" (Eagles)
5.trying to get someone's attention by yelling "Yo"
I think Bill was right when he said that the accent is more of a regional thing. If you can tell the difference between someone from Philly, Wilmington or South Jersey then you've got amazing ears.
Also, someone growing up in Rocky Balboa's South Philly neighborhood wouldn't sound anything like someone who grew up and trained at Joe Frazier's gym in North Philly.
And I still maintain that Larry does not have a New York accent, even though your ears clearly detect one. After talking Stooges for many years with many people, I don't recall anyone ever making this assertion or asking why. To me that means the average person does not hear what you do.
Being familiar with the voices of Larry's brother and sister, I'd say he sounds more like a Feinberg than a Philadelphian or New Yorker.
Gary
metaldams:
--- Quote from: garystooge on December 16, 2010, 09:54:36 AM ---
2.asking for a glass of "wooder" (water)
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I'm originally from Connecticut, and live 45 minutes away from Philly. My brother's girlfriend when he was in high school always used to say "Wooder," and we constantly teased her about it.
Another thing I notice, and maybe we're strange in Connecticut, but what people in this area call "viewings," we'd call "wakes" in Connecticut.
Lefty:
I was bahn in Philadelphia and other than saying "Yo," I don't sound like the typical Fluffyan. Howevuh, at the dinah I ahdud gahlic bread aftuh I pahked my cah just ahf Roosevelt Boulevahd, because at foist I didn't have fawty dollahs at Toidy-Toid and Toid Avenyuh. But Ah do declayer, y'all sho talk lahk y'all wanna oh-er-der chee-uh-kun tanders and Fray-anch Frahz. But it sure is coald oot, eh?
Dr. Hugo Gansamacher:
Lefty's message appeared while I was composing this one. Lefty, are you saying that [r]-dropping is a feature of some Philadelphian accents? If so, then that would explain one of the chief features of Larry's accent that I perceive as New York-ish. By the way, I am surprised that you would represent a "Fluffyan" pronunciation of "born," "ordered," and "off" as "bahn," "ahded," and "ahf," rather than "bawn," "awded," and "awf": that looks more like a representation of Boston pronunciation to me. Of course, trying to use conventional characters to represent details like these is always treacherous.
--- Quote from: garystooge on December 16, 2010, 09:54:36 AM ---Being familiar with the voices of Larry's brother and sister, I'd say he sounds more like a Feinberg than a Philadelphian or New Yorker.
Gary
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This just deepens the puzzle. If the Feinbergs all grew up in Philadelphia, what on earth can it mean to say that Larry "sounds more like a Feinberg than a Philadelphian or New Yorker"? Larry clearly has some sort of regional Northeastern accent. If it is not a Philadelphia accent, then what is it, and how did he come to have it?
Perhaps the issues will become clearer if we look at a specific example. Below is a YouTube video of the first half of He Cooked His Goose. (Sorry that the sound is out of synch.) Listen to how he pronounces words that, in non-regional American accents, have post-vocalic [r] in them:
(1) At 0:59, Larry says, "In person, Milly, my little dilly! And I brought you some flowers." The vowel, or rather diphthong, that he has in the first syllable of the word "person" is plainly non-rhotic: in terms of articulatory phonetics, it is a rising diphthong that moves from a central starting point to a high frontal end point, or in phonetic notation, [ɜɪ]. This is a diphthong characteristic of working-class New York City accents and also of some Southern accents (notably some New Orleans accents). I do not know of any other regional American accents in which it occurs. In particular, I have not known it to occur in any accent native to the region of southern New Jersey, Philadelphia, and thereabouts—but if I am mistaken on that point, please let me know. Larry's pronunciation of the word "person" here sounds like something from out of the mouth of a working-class New Yorker. If you want an example of the diphthong from native New Yorkers, listen to how Chico and Groucho pronounce the word "rehearsing" in this clip from Animal Crackers starting at 6:30. Does such a diphthong occur in Philadelphia accents?
(2) The word "flowers" has no [r] in it: in phonetic notation, it is [flaʊəz] rather than the rhotic [flaʊɚz] (or [flaʊərz]—the choice of notation is largely a matter of convenience). Again, this sounds like New York (to me, anyway).
(3) At 1:15, he says, "Hey, Milly, how 'bout havin' dinner with me tonight?" "Dinner" is [dɪnə], with no final [r].
(4) At 1:24, he says, "You're a sucker, Milly!" He pronounces "sucker" as [sʌkə], with no final [r].
(5) A few seconds after that, he says, "Nevertheless, it's a fact! You're too good for that chiseler." pronounces "nevertheless" as [ˈnɛvəðəlˌɛs], with no [r]; "you're" as [jʊə], with no [r]; and "chiseler" as [ˈtʃɪzlə], again with no [r].
And so on. Is this sort of thing found in Philadelphia accents? I ask especially about detail no. 1.
[youtube=425,350]FR2cPRvWXsA[/youtube]
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