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"Does it make any difference?!"

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Offline kinderscenen

Greetings!

While reading the post about the lack of Joe Besser-era shorts released (either on video or DVD), I just sort of realised something.  Would it have made any difference what Columbia shorts dept. contractee replaced Shemp?  Despite most of our dislike of the Joe (and Curly-Joe) eras, the quest to find another Curly pretty much led to only 2 choices that Moe, Larry, and Columbia really seriously considered--Joe DeRita (Moe's first choice, but no longer under contract, so no go) and Joe Besser (under contract, looked like Curly (??!!))

So no matter how the quality dipped, or how Besser didn't fit, I'm guessing that he was pretty much the only choice there was going to be (at least that's what I understood from the books).  Did the search for Curly No. 2 cause the Stooges to not live up to their comedy potential?  Who knows?

Sunday
Larry: They’ll hang us for this!
Moe: I know! Let’s cremate him!
Larry: Can’t do that--we ain’t got no cream!


Offline shemps#1

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A note before I dig into this one; the studio was actually against bringing Shemp back into the act to take over for Curly. They wanted a Curly look-alike back then too, but relented to Moe's wishes.

From an artistic standpoint, the Stooges should have called it a day when Shemp passed. Without either Curly or Shemp that Howard-Fine-Howard dynamic was gone, and the Stooges would never be the same. Besides, Moe and Larry were not spring chickens at the time of Shemp's death, and the act was getting antiquated and stale. Of course they were under contract, and by no means rich enough to retire (nor were they recieving royalties), so that was never an option.

I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying they would have been better off going with fatfuck Derita as soon as Shemp died? The Derita movies are even worse than the Besser shorts. You watch Snow White and the Three Stooges and then with a straight face tell me that any of the Besser shorts were worse. That includes Sweet and Hot (generally regarded as the worst Stooge short of all time). There have been times where I have literally been bored into slumber by those awful Derita pictures. They might as well have been The Two Stooges, or better yet kept on pretending Shemp was still alive by conviently using a mix of stock footage and the back of Joe Palma's head. The back of Joe Palma's head had more charisma and talent than Derita could ever dream of having.

I have a feeling I'm not quite on the right track in regards to your question; that I'm not understanding you correctly. Perhaps you can clarify.
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Offline kinderscenen

A note before I dig into this one; the studio was actually against bringing Shemp back into the act to take over for Curly. They wanted a Curly look-alike back then too, but relented to Moe's wishes.

Damn! How I neglected to put that in (when it actually would've made a good point), I don't know.  But I tend to think that there wasn't ANY choice when it came to 1946.  As I recall, there was only a 2 month "rehearsal" period--either Columbia realised that Moe knew more about the best way to keep the gravy train going, or go with a lesser known, Curly-ish comedian who would've been the downfall of the Stooges 25 years before they should've hung it up.

From an artistic standpoint, the Stooges should have called it a day when Shemp passed. Without either Curly or Shemp that Howard-Fine-Howard dynamic was gone, and the Stooges would never be the same. Besides, Moe and Larry were not spring chickens at the time of Shemp's death, and the act was getting antiquated and stale. Of course they were under contract, and by no means rich enough to retire (nor were they recieving royalties), so that was never an option.

Yeah--that's another problem.  I think that Moe wouldn't have had to be pressured into retiring the act--mentally, if it were me, I wouldn't have cared what Helen or Larry said, the death of 2 brothers in the space of 3 years, as well as the performing/business aspect would've been too much for me to deal with.  The act would've been kaput, right then and there, no matter what schemes Columbia had.  Then a 2 month period (??) to rehearse a new comedian (one who didn't want to do it, and I think was pretty much given an option of 'do this, or hit the road'). 

I do think that if Larry hadn't been in such dire financial straits, Moe would've probably called it quits. It's been mentioned how the shorts were still making money, but since the department was closed a mere 2 years later, you do have to wonder if there was an astronomical increase in expenses, or some other factor that led the Stooges to hang on.
I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying they would have been better off going with fatfuck Derita as soon as Shemp died?
Yes--but I'm thinking the DeRita of the movies (when they had to deal with being good 'role models'  :P) wasn't the same as the guy from the Minsky days.  The burlesque DeRita would've worked, I think. The toned down one? Meh. Then again, the movies period sort of fell flat. I do wonder what would've happened if they hadn't had to give in to parental groups and were left to their own devices.
The Derita movies are even worse than the Besser shorts. You watch Snow White and the Three Stooges and then with a straight face tell me that any of the Besser shorts were worse. That includes Sweet and Hot (generally regarded as the worst Stooge short of all time). There have been times where I have literally been bored into slumber by those awful Derita pictures. They might as well have been The Two Stooges, or better yet kept on pretending Shemp was still alive by conviently using a mix of stock footage and the back of Joe Palma's head. The back of Joe Palma's head had more charisma and talent than Derita could ever dream of having.

The one performance that makes me think that DeRita wasn't a bad choice was a 1963 Ed Sullivan appearance (General Hospital spoof, I think).  Maybe because it was live, maybe it was how Moe slapped DeRita's wig off and then bursts out laughing as he chased it down, but that performance surprised me--the Sullivan appearance changed my mind, at least as far as TV was concerned.  The movies still sucked--I've never been fond of children-oriented movies, and, I'm sorry, the Stooges have never been (to me) child-friendly. 

But yes--you're right. The whole feel of the Howard-Fine-Howard dynamic was so natural that it just seemed that anyone else who was the patsy was an outsider. 

Sunday
Larry: They’ll hang us for this!
Moe: I know! Let’s cremate him!
Larry: Can’t do that--we ain’t got no cream!


Pilsner Panther

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I have to disagree about how willing Moe might have been to retire. From everything I've read about him, he was one of those born performers who wouldn't have felt complete without an audience in front of him. The proof, I think, is that he went on as a solo, making all those TV talk show and college appearances even after the Stooges were no more. Without an audience, he probably would have just folded up and died, a lot sooner than he did.

I've seen quite a few of the old-time jazz artists who were (or still are) carrying on at incredible ages. For example, just last November, Jay McShann. Now that Artie Shaw has died, he's the last of the 40's Big Band leaders who's still alive, and still going strong at 90. He doesn't have a band anymore, and he's so frail that he has to be helped out on stage, but he still sings in a powerful blues-shouting voice and plays great barrelhouse and boogie piano.

I've also seen violinist Stephane Grappelli, saxophonist/trumpeter/bandleader Benny Carter, and trumpeter Doc Cheatham (all gone now), who were still playing beautifully in their late 80's.

Moe was the same type— going on no matter what— and those people aren't like us ordinary human beings!

 [thumbsup]


Offline Dunrobin

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I have to disagree about how willing Moe might have been to retire. From everything I've read about him, he was one of those born performers who wouldn't have felt complete without an audience in front of him. The proof, I think, is that he went on as a solo, making all those TV talk show and college appearances even after the Stooges were no more. Without an audience, he probably would have just folded up and died, a lot sooner than he did.
...

Moe was the same type— going on no matter what— and those people aren't like us ordinary human beings!

 [thumbsup]

I was about to make the same point.  Another example reinforcing it was the fact that Moe was apparently anxious to get back to work as a comedy team in 1975, with Emil Sitka in Larry's place; the only thing that prevented it was Moe getting sick and dying before they could get started.  Obviously, it wasn't just Larry's financial status that made Moe decide to keep going; he lived to perform.


Offline kinderscenen

I have to disagree about how willing Moe might have been to retire. From everything I've read about him, he was one of those born performers who wouldn't have felt complete without an audience in front of him. The proof, I think, is that he went on as a solo, making all those TV talk show and college appearances even after the Stooges were no more. Without an audience, he probably would have just folded up and died, a lot sooner than he did.


Damn, yet again!  That makes me wonder did he actually want to retire the act after the death of Curly and Shemp, or (which is most likely), the thought of basically starting all over again coupled with grief make retirement (at least for a little while) that much more appealing?

I forgot about the "forced" retirement in 1958-59, when obviously no one wanted to quit working, and Moe didn't stop working. 

I've also seen violinist Stephane Grappelli, saxophonist/trumpeter/bandleader Benny Carter, and trumpeter Doc Cheatham (all gone now), who were still playing beautifully in their late 80's.

Moe was the same type— going on no matter what— and those people aren't like us ordinary human beings!


No, he wasn't.  My goodness, he performed for, what, at least 65-70 years? I should've realised that any statements made in his autobiography when he stated he strongly considered retiring the act after Shemp's death--but Helen and Larry encouraged him to keep the act going, were obviously fueled by grief.  After all, they kept going whether they were "popular" or not.

Sunday
Larry: They’ll hang us for this!
Moe: I know! Let’s cremate him!
Larry: Can’t do that--we ain’t got no cream!


Offline No, Roquefort

It seems like I read that Moe wanted to reprise the Stooges with Emil Sitka just before Larry died. ???


Offline kinderscenen

It seems like I read that Moe wanted to reprise the Stooges with Emil Sitka just before Larry died. ???

I'm not sure if it was "just before"--as mentioned in Scrapbook, it was at least as early as 1971, but yes, the New New Stooges  "officially" got off the ground in April (??!!) 1975.

Sunday
Larry: They’ll hang us for this!
Moe: I know! Let’s cremate him!
Larry: Can’t do that--we ain’t got no cream!