John Lennon

falsealarms · **on:** March 04, 2009, 03:37:08 PM

A great song and the background video here is a fun watch as well.

[youtube=550,350]8dHUfy_YBps[/youtube]

metaldams · **Reply #1 on:** March 04, 2009, 05:51:59 PM

What a coincidence, I just listened to the MIND GAMES album today.

Since this is a John Lennon thread, can Jim or anybody else tell me if SOMETIME IN NEW YORK CITY is actually worth checking out? I think it's the only real Lennon music album ("music" being an operative word), I don't have, but I'm really not sure if I'd like it. John's overt political side's not my favorite side of him when it gets in the way of the music, and this one seems to have a lot of Yoko.

busybuddy · **Reply #2 on:** March 04, 2009, 07:59:42 PM

That Mind Games video is great. It's my favorite one off of the Lennon Legend DVD.

I personally like Sometime In New York City. If your not a Yoko fan though, you may want to stay clear. She has as many songs on there as John. But in my opinion, her best work is on here. I'm not ashamed to admit that I like her songs Sisters O Sisters and Born in A Prison, both of which are on here, as well as a great bonus song of hers called Listen, The Snow is Falling . John has some great songs too, like Woman is the Nigger of The World, New York City, John Sinclair, and a few others. John and Yoko do quite a few duets that aren't bad either. There's only about three songs on the album that I don't care for, but that's just my opinion.

metaldams · **Reply #3 on:** March 04, 2009, 08:51:23 PM

Quote from: busybuddy on March 04, 2009, 07:59:42 PM

That Mind Games video is great. It's my favorite one off of the Lennon Legend DVD.

I personally like Sometime In New York City. If your not a Yoko fan though, you may want to stay clear. She has as many songs on there as John. But in my opinion, her best work is on here. I'm not ashamed to admit that I like her songs Sisters O Sisters and Born in A Prison, both of which are on here, as well as a great bonus song of hers called Listen, The Snow is Falling . John has some great songs too, like Woman is the Nigger of The World, New York City, John Sinclair, and a few others. John and Yoko do quite a few duets that aren't bad either. There's only about three songs on the album that I don't care for, but that's just my opinion.

"New York City" is a good song. I think I heard that on a documenary or something. I may just do a youtube search on songs and download the ones I like.

I don't have a personal problem with Yoko like other Beatle fans do. I just wish John would've realized Yoko was not exactly his artistic equal, or at least compatible with John's art.

metaldams · **Reply #4 on:** March 04, 2009, 09:02:44 PM

Y'know, I have that ANTHOLOGY box set that came out 10 years ago, and I just realized live and demo versions of a lot of John's SINYC album are on this. Perhaps I should explore this box set more. I've always preferred the demo version of "God" to the studio version anyway!

OldFred · **Reply #5 on:** March 04, 2009, 09:45:03 PM

The 'Sometime In New York City' album is much too political for me, and a lot of the views expressed are extremely dated now. There's some good music on it, but it's considered in Beatles' circles as lyrically one of John's weakest albums.

Having said that, I think 'Mind Games' is an overlooked Lennon album worth rediscovering.

busybuddy · **Reply #6 on:** March 06, 2009, 09:40:27 AM

Mind Games is the first Lennon solo album that I heard all the way through when I was a kid and I still think it's great. Tight A$ and Only People are some of my favorite Lennon solo songs, and of course the title track is great. I think Lennon's post Imagine albums are sometimes overlooked, even by fans. I always think, "Walls and Bridges isn't that great . . ." then I put it on and I'm always blown away. I even like Rock and Roll and Double Fantasy, although not as much Plastic Ono Band, the best Beatle solo album (though it may be a tie with All Things Must Pass). But there's always a lot of Lennon stuff you forget about until you go back and listen again. He definately had the most consistent solo career, even though Paul (my favorite Beatle, and I love his solo work) had more hits. But Paul could do something out of this world one minute, and then kick your soul in crotch the next minute with something like his version of Mary Had a Little Lamb.

metaldams · **Reply #7 on:** March 06, 2009, 10:10:59 AM

Paul did the best version of "Mary Had A Little Lamb" I ever heard. It still sucks.

John's problem with his post IMAGINE work, heck, even IMAGINE itself in parts, is that he's overproduced. McCartney and overproduction is fine because Paul's more a craft and studio guy, but Lennon's a more personal songwriter, and by the time he was producing his own work, he had this hang up about putting his voice back in the mix. The key attraction in listening to John Lennon is his singing and words. This ANTHOLOGY box I've been listening to the past couple of days is great because the rawer production of the songs bring forth John's voice and words. The versions of "Nobody Loves You (When and You're Down and Out" and "One Day At A Time," amongst others, blow away the album versions.

You guys want to talk criminally underrated MIND GAMES songs? Look no further than "Aisumasen (I'm Sorry)," one of THE great Lennon solo songs that never gets its due.

busybuddy · **Reply #8 on:** March 06, 2009, 05:57:51 PM

Quote from: metaldams on March 06, 2009, 10:10:59 AM

Paul did the best version of "Mary Had A Little Lamb" I ever heard. It still sucks.

John's problem with his post IMAGINE work, heck, even IMAGINE itself in parts, is that he's overproduced. McCartney and overproduction is fine because Paul's more a craft and studio guy, but Lennon's a more personal songwriter, and by the time he was producing his own work, he had this hang up about putting his voice back in the mix. The key attraction in listening to John Lennon is his singing and words. This ANTHOLOGY box I've been listening to the past couple of days is great because the rawer production of the songs bring forth John's voice and words. The versions of "Nobody Loves You (When and You're Down and Out" and "One Day At A Time," amongst others, blow away the album versions.

You guys want to talk criminally underrated MIND GAMES songs? Look no further than "Aisumasen (I'm Sorry)," one of THE great Lennon solo songs that never gets its due.

That's why Plastic Ono Band is his best album, three to four instruments and a voice. John always said he hated the overdubs and overproduction, so I wonder why he always used Phil Spector or 10 musicians per album. If you've ever seen Gimme Some Truth: The Making of Imagine, John and the whole group of musicians and tagalongs agree that Imagaine should just be a piano-only song. Alan White, the drummer, even says he prefers it without drums, so I wonder why they added so much in the end.

As for the boxset, the version of Losing You on there (which I belive may have featured Cheap Trick as the musicians, correct me if I'm wrong) is far superior to the one on Double Fantasy. And I would take the version of Dear Yoko from the Acoustic album anyday over the complete one on DF. I wish I had that Anthology because I've only heard a few songs from it.

shemps#1 · **Reply #9 on:** March 07, 2009, 09:32:42 AM

Quote from: metaldams on March 06, 2009, 10:10:59 AM

Paul did the best version of "Mary Had A Little Lamb" I ever heard. It still sucks.

John's problem with his post IMAGINE work, heck, even IMAGINE itself in parts, is that he's overproduced. McCartney and overproduction is fine because Paul's more a craft and studio guy, but Lennon's a more personal songwriter, and by the time he was producing his own work, he had this hang up about putting his voice back in the mix. The key attraction in listening to John Lennon is his singing and words. This ANTHOLOGY box I've been listening to the past couple of days is great because the rawer production of the songs bring forth John's voice and words. The versions of "Nobody Loves You (When and You're Down and Out" and "One Day At A Time," amongst others, blow away the album versions.

You guys want to talk criminally underrated MIND GAMES songs? Look no further than "Aisumasen (I'm Sorry)," one of THE great Lennon solo songs that never gets its due.

How can anyone fail to mention Sometime in NYC when talking post-Imagine is beyond me. All you have to do is get through half an album of Yoko to listen one of the worst post-Beatles albums ever.

metaldams · **Reply #10 on:** March 07, 2009, 03:28:33 PM

Quote from: shemps#1 on March 07, 2009, 09:32:42 AM

How can anyone fail to mention Sometime in NYC when talking post-Imagine is beyond me. All you have to do is get through half an album of Yoko to listen one of the worst post-Beatles albums ever.

Like I mentioned above, I've never heard STINYC, so I can't comment much on it. That said, here's a present for you guys.

[youtube=425,350]bfZvHuh7wKM[/youtube]

busybuddy · **Reply #11 on:** March 07, 2009, 06:37:03 PM

Here's more:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/UBUMpEwvLLQ&hl=en&fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/UBUMpEwvLLQ&hl=en&fs=1</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/5eE2zMENLU8&hl=en&fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/5eE2zMENLU8&hl=en&fs=1</a>

metaldams · **Reply #12 on:** March 07, 2009, 10:14:14 PM

I have that Lennon concert on VHS. It's been years since I've watched it, but you know, I think I'll pop it in right now. Thanks Busybuddy.

As for Yoko, I'm not going to be one of those jerks who's going to knock John for marrying her. That's his personal life, not my place to comment. Artistically, placing her on his albums and playing in concert with her was bad judgement. It's really a shame he viewed her as an artistic equal.

busybuddy · **Reply #13 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:59:28 PM

Quote from: metaldams on March 07, 2009, 10:14:14 PM

As for Yoko, I'm not going to be one of those jerks who's going to knock John for marrying her. That's his personal life, not my place to comment. Artistically, placing her on his albums and playing in concert with her was bad judgement. It's really a shame he viewed her as an artistic equal.

I like some of her music, but if it wasn't for John, I'd never give it the time of day. She was a good artist in terms of avant garde writing and visual art, but she should have left the music to John. If she wanted to sit by his side in a black bag, more power to her. But as for singing, I prefer Linda McCartney who, contrary to popular belief, could carry a tune.

By the way Lennon fans, has anyone checked out the book John Lennon: The Life that was released last Christmas? Not only is it the best biography on John, it also sites Moe Howard as the only pre-Beatle celebrity with a soup-bowl haircut.

metaldams · **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2009, 05:04:36 PM

Quote from: busybuddy on March 09, 2009, 08:59:28 PM

I like some of her music, but if it wasn't for John, I'd never give it the time of day. She was a good artist in terms of avant garde writing and visual art, but she should have left the music to John. If she wanted to sit by his side in a black bag, more power to her. But as for singing, I prefer Linda McCartney who, contrary to popular belief, could carry a tune.

By the way Lennon fans, has anyone checked out the book John Lennon: The Life that was released last Christmas? Not only is it the best biography on John, it also sites Moe Howard as the only pre-Beatle celebrity with a soup-bowl haircut.

Linda McCartney could carry a tune like an average person (I'm a below average person in this respect), shake a tambourine, and play one finger keyboard parts while backed up by a real keyboard player. She was there for Paul more so on a personal level, and at least there were no delusions of grandeur on her end or Paul's concerning her artistry. She was just kind of there. Yoko's "art" is from the avant-garde world and in no way should've interfered with John's albums, as their ideas were incompatible. Yeah, George had his Ravi Shankars and what not when he did his occasional concert, but at least he kept his own voice on his own albums and at least Ravi Shankar has actual talent.

As for books, I generally tire of biographies after awhile, as there are too many of them on the market for The Beatles and the older I get, the less patience I have for reading about celebrity sex lives and other quirks. I'm currently reading WHILE MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS: THE MUSIC OF GEORGE HARRISON by Simon Leng, and the only mention you'll hear of Patti and Eric is how it effected him lyrically around his DARK HORSE album. This book is refreshingly a critical biography on George's music, and I highly reccommend it.

busybuddy · **Reply #15 on:** March 11, 2009, 10:45:33 AM

I used to think that Linda only played with one finger too, but I found out that she played a thing called a "mini-moog" that could only be played with one finger. You couldn't play chords on it. Again, she's wasn't great, but she wasn't quite as bad as some people made her out to be.

shemps#1 · **Reply #16 on:** March 16, 2009, 07:16:54 PM

Almost anybody barring Deaf people can carry a tune (and when I heard my Deaf girlfriend come very close to the tune of a song on TV I nearly shit myself): it's whether or not you'd want to listen to them that matters. Linda and Yoko were both terrible singers, the only difference being that Linda was bad in a "not even make the early shows in a season of American Idol because she's boring" way Yoko would not only be on the show but a featured clip in the teaser commercials. Yoko and her music is so spectacularly awful that it has made it's own kind of weird, "cult" mark on the industry, much like Ed Wood did in the movie industry. There we go, Yoko is to Ed Wood as Linda was to Michael Bay.

My personal favorite track off of Mind Games is "Out The Blue", and I agree that the Mind Games album is very underrated, but I feel that has to do with the lack of Phil Spector hanging around. You've got to remember that POB, Imagine, STINYC and Rock and Roll were all co-produced with Spector (and if I'm not mistaken it was during the R&R sessions that Spector pulled a gun on Lennon). Anyone who thinks the over-production is not a Spector influence take a listen to his version of the Let It Be album and get back to me.

As Fred said I think STINYC suffers from being rather dated in addition to the Yoko tunes. In fact, the only real enjoyment out of listening to STINYC is to bathe your ears in the marvelous splendor of Yoko's banshee whail than anything John did on the album. Lennon was the best at writing timeless music that transcends generations, which makes him singing about how John Sinclair was "given 10 (years) for 2 (joints)" back in the day (although Sinclair was released shortly after Lennon performed it at a rally) or Angela Davis seem retarded in comparison to his better works.

If I were to rate the Lennon solo albums from best to worst here is how my list would look (omitting compilations and the three avante guarde albums):
1. Plastic Ono Band 10/10
2. Imagine 9/10
3. Mind Games 8.5/10
4. Walls and Bridges 8/10
5. Double Fantasy 7.5/10
6. Live in NYC 7/10
7. Milk and Honey * 7/10
8. Menlove Ave * 6.5/10
9. Rock and Roll 6.5/10
10. Live Peace (Toronto concert) 5/10
11. Sometime in NYC 3/10

*released posthumously

metaldams · **Reply #17 on:** March 16, 2009, 09:01:33 PM

I'm almost amazed that Phil Spector produced PLASTIC ONO BAND. Here's this guy known for his big wall of sound, and we end up with probably the rawest rock production until black metal bands started the vacuum cleaner with drums sound. Plodding drums and bass, distorted guitar, and Lennon screaming his lungs out, yet it works. Didn't think Spector could make something so dry. Gotta wonder if it was all his idea, or more so John's? Either way, he also pulled a gun on The Ramones and murdered his girl, so Spector's a certifiable nut job.

Oh, and I'll rate all The Beatle solo albums I know well enough to rate. Obviously, there's still some exploring to do.

JOHN:
Plastic Ono Band: 10
Imagine: 9
Mind Games: 7.5
Walls and Bridges: 8
Rock And Roll: 6 (I'll listen to Chuck Berry or Little Richard when I want 50's rock 'n' roll)
Milk and Honey: 5
Anthology: 10 (4 CD box set of outtakes, pretty essential)
The John Lennon Collection: 10 *

* Had this one since I was in high school. Collects all his singles, as "Instant Kharma" is his best IMO. Also collects 6 of his seven DOUBLE FANTASY tracks and I believe is still the only place you can get the "Stand By Me" b-side, "Move Over Ms. L."

PAUL

McCartney: 7 (The good stuff's great, but there's too much filler)
Ram: 9.5
Band on the Run: 8 (a bit overrated, but not bad)
Wingspan: Hits and History - 9 ("Silly Love Songs" may be cheese, but it's well-crafted cheese)
Flaming Pie: 9 (A favorite of mine when I graduated high school)

GEORGE
All Things Must Pass: 10 ++
Dark Horse: 5
Thirty Three 1/3: 9
Cloud 9: 8.5 (Would be ranked higher if it weren't for the soulless 80's drum sound. Good songs)
Brainwashed: 10 (excellent swan song for George, classic title track)

RINGO:
Photograph: The Best Of: 8 ("Photograph" and "It Don't Come Easy" are brilliant singles, and some of the other songs aren't bad, but Ringo's entire career, way more than the others, seems to be about being a Beatle).

shemps#1 · **Reply #18 on:** March 17, 2009, 02:04:07 PM

The funny thing about Rock and Roll is that it was originally going to only be a mail order only album complete with John starring in one of those commercials like you see for Time/Life and NOW! records. It all stemmed from the lawsuit over Come Together, if I remember the story correctly.

BTW, Paul deserves to be sodomized with a nail-filled wooden board and no Vaseline for Silly Love Songs.

busybuddy · **Reply #19 on:** March 17, 2009, 04:11:38 PM

According to Ringo (who played drums on Plastic Ono Band), Spector wasn't even there until the very, very end. John and Yoko produced most of it.

I think the story is, Spector split halfway through the drunken mess that was the Rock and Roll. John had a very hard time finding the tapes that Spector had, seeing as how Spector was nowhere to be seen. Within a few months, a commercial started airing about a new Lennon album called, "Roots." It had a very tacky cover that featured a large photo of John from the "Let it Be" era. It was obviously a bootleg, and John took the producers to court, the photo of which is in John Lennon: The New York Years by photographer Bob Gruen.

Silly Love Songs is a favorite of mine. It has one of the best bass lines in any song ever. It may not be Revolver, but it's better than anything else that was out at the time.

metaldams · **Reply #20 on:** March 17, 2009, 05:20:41 PM

Quote from: shemps#1 on March 17, 2009, 02:04:07 PM

BTW, Paul deserves to be sodomized with a nail-filled wooden board and no Vaseline for Silly Love Songs.

Oh, c'mon Jim, that's just wrong! Give the man some Vaseline.

metaldams · **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2009, 05:23:54 PM

Quote from: shemps#1 on March 17, 2009, 02:04:07 PM

The funny thing about Rock and Roll is that it was originally going to only be a mail order only album complete with John starring in one of those commercials like you see for Time/Life and NOW! records. It all stemmed from the lawsuit over Come Together, if I remember the story correctly.

"Come Together" and Chuck Berry's "You Can't Catch Me" share the "Here come ol' flat-top" line as well as a similarly distinct melody in the verse. That's how that lawsuit started. Fuck, to be sued by one of your idols!

metaldams · **Reply #22 on:** March 17, 2009, 05:28:22 PM

Quote from: busybuddy on March 17, 2009, 04:11:38 PM

According to Ringo (who played drums on Plastic Ono Band), Spector wasn't even there until the very, very end. John and Yoko produced most of it.

I think the story is, Spector split halfway through the drunken mess that was the Rock and Roll. John had a very hard time finding the tapes that Spector had, seeing as how Spector was nowhere to be seen. Within a few months, a commercial started airing about a new Lennon album called, "Roots." It had a very tacky cover that featured a large photo of John from the "Let it Be" era. It was obviously a bootleg, and John took the producers to court, the photo of which is in John Lennon: The New York Years by photographer Bob Gruen.

That would make sense. Definitely not Spector's style.

I just found out about the existence of this album recently, but it appears there is a Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band album out there, and it even has the same cover and primal scream stuff! Has anybody braved through this one?

shemps#1 · **Reply #23 on:** March 18, 2009, 08:04:45 AM

Quote from: busybuddy on March 17, 2009, 04:11:38 PM

According to Ringo (who played drums on Plastic Ono Band), Spector wasn't even there until the very, very end. John and Yoko produced most of it.

I think the story is, Spector split halfway through the drunken mess that was the Rock and Roll. John had a very hard time finding the tapes that Spector had, seeing as how Spector was nowhere to be seen. Within a few months, a commercial started airing about a new Lennon album called, "Roots." It had a very tacky cover that featured a large photo of John from the "Let it Be" era. It was obviously a bootleg, and John took the producers to court, the photo of which is in John Lennon: The New York Years by photographer Bob Gruen.

Silly Love Songs is a favorite of mine. It has one of the best bass lines in any song ever. It may not be Revolver, but it's better than anything else that was out at the time.

Oh yeah, the Roots album...now I remember!

Morris Levy of Big Seven sues Lennon and EMI over Come Together and a deal is struck where John is supposed to cover 3 Big Seven/Levy songs
on his "next" album. That "next" album was supposed by what became Rock and Roll, but Spector absconded with the master tapes. EMI sued Spector then eventually reached a settlement where they paid Spector something like $90K to get the master tapes back. John didn't want to go through all the master tapes to pick out what was usable right away so Lennon went ahead with Walls and Bridges, in which he left a slight nod to the Levy mess with a one minute or so version of Ya-Ya with son Julian playing drums. Levy was not impressed and contacted John, which led to Lennon meeting with Levy and explaining the situation.

Levy convinced Lennon to give him a copy of the songs scheduled for the covers album, which John did by dubbing it for him. Levy even got him to orally (huh-huh) agree to bypass EMI and release the album through his label Adam VIII, which would then sell it strictly through mail order. Of course EMI was having none of that shit and put the kibosh on that, especially since they were the ones who paid to get the master tapes back in the first place. Levy went ahead and pressed the dub and released the Roots album. 3000 were ordered before EMI sent out a cease and desist.

Levy sued Lennon again for breach of oral contract and Lennon counter sued saying Levy damaged the sales of Rock and Roll by producing an inferior sounding album which featured an old picture that didn't accurately represent John Lennon 1975 and for using his name and likeness without permission (Levy had put on the cover and sleeve "Produced from master recordings owned by and with permission of John Lennon and Apple Records, Inc."). The judge gave Levy a settlement of maybe $7000 or so but gave John and EMI over $100K and John another 35K in punitive damages.

Roots is technically not a bootleg since it was in a round-about way produced from master recordings (or a dub of them from Lennon himself). It was however an illegally produced album since John had an exclusive contract with EMI. The Roots LP has become one of the most prized Beatles-related LP among collectors...I heard somewhere one went for a couple thousand at auction awhile back.

As for Silly Love Songs, it is one of the worst songs ever written by a former member of the Beatles. Paul's answer to his critics who said "hey, all you've been doing since the Beatles split is making meaningless fluffy pop songs" is make one ultra sappy middle finger to them. While I like the theory I just can't stomach the result: it's too sappy for my taste (as with most of Paul's post-Beatles work).

shemps#1 · **Reply #24 on:** March 18, 2009, 08:52:56 AM

Quote from: metaldams on March 17, 2009, 05:28:22 PM

That would make sense. Definitely not Spector's style.

I just found out about the existence of this album recently, but it appears there is a Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band album out there, and it even has the same cover and primal scream stuff! Has anybody braved through this one?

Yep, I've listened to the Yoko POB...it builds character getting through that stuff.

John Lennon - Mind Games