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Besser thoughts following the Master Debate I

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Offline Desmond Of The Outer Sanctorum

I originally was going to post the following as a fan review of FLYING SAUCER DAFFY, but one of the important types around here ;) suggested I post in the the message board instead. So here goes.

At first I wasn't too fond of SAUCER, even by Joe standards, but the discussion about it in the first Master Debates (subject: was Joe or Curly-Joe the better Stooge?) made me rethink it. For one thing, I came to realize that here Joe has finally gotten around to taking his full share of abuse as a Stooge, which shows that he may have fit in better if he’d had more time. The separation of Joe from the others (not a good idea in & of itself, IMO) allows parts of this to be kind of a "Two Stooges" vehicle. The plot wears its Cinderella influence on its sleeve without that becoming an obnoxiously obvious gimmick.

This was the last short filmed, and I think the Stooges’ shorts would have better gone out on this note instead of that of the uber-whimper of SAPPY BULLFIGHTERS.

When I showed SAUCER to my teenage son, the two biggest laughs he got from it were both Joe solo moments: the little twist on "not so ha-a-a-ard," and Joe losing all his stuff out of the picnic blanket when hastily trying to get home.

And with that I’d like to renew (at the risk of being obnoxious) my "Stop talking about Besser as if he was the worst thing to ever happen to the Stooges" campaign. Sure, he comes in at a somewhat distant third (at best) to Curly & Shemp, but to me that sounds like an accomplishment to be proud of. Just because he wasn’t as good as them (who would have been?) doesn’t make him a disease, for gosh sake. Give the guy some credit for doing what he could with an impossible assignment. Even the most legitimate grounds for criticizing him, that he originally wouldn’t take slapstick, changed before long, as SAUCER shows.

This may be a stretch, but (as a side note) I say Curly has more in common with Joe than you might think; after all, each character was a big, bald, surrealistic man-baby in his own way. Curly, of course, was more original, memorable & creative, besides fitting the Stooge mold better because he helped define it in the first place. But once again, that doesn’t mean Joe was chopped liver. BTW, "not so ha-a-a-ard" is as much a part of my household’s Stooge vocabulary as "spread out!", "nyuk nyuk nyuk" or "eeb-eeb-eeb-eeb."

Finally, though, I’m glad Joe didn’t go on and make features with the Stooges. Curly-Joe just seems so much more appropriate for those (which, BTW, is not a compliment to Curly-Joe).
"Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day." -- Samuel Goldwyn

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...are generally not the ones telling you whatever you want to hear.


Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

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I've had some post "Joe VS Joe" thoughts myself.

If not Joe Besser, who else was around that could have filled the shoes of Shemp, or else contribute a unique offering to the Stooge mystique? How many people did Moe consider? (Or, was Joe Besser a choice of the "blue suits" in Columbia?)

My best defense for Joe Derita was to say he actually was a "stock comedian", but that may have been just a defense to win a year's subscription from our beloved Stooge site. It's a little unfair to call Curly-Joe a pasteboard copy of Curly. He did fit in well with the softer, appeal to kids' version of our boys late in their career, along with taking a fair amount of comedic abuse from Moe during their stint as TV celebs and movie makers.
The tacks won't come out! Well, they went in ... maybe they're income tacks.


Offline Desmond Of The Outer Sanctorum

I think I said this elsewhere, but I've heard that Shemp & Joe were friends for a long time. If that's true, I suspect Shemp himself would have approved of Joe as his replacement.

I've seen at least one pre-Stooge Besser solo short that made me think, "Yeah, here he definitely looks like he could be Stooge material."

In fairness to Curly-Joe, from what I've seen he didn't try to imitate Curly. He had his own persona; it was just a really mild one. Once in a while I see him pull something off that makes me think he could have done better overall if he'd tried harder.
"Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day." -- Samuel Goldwyn

The people who have your best interests at heart...
...are generally not the ones telling you whatever you want to hear.


Offline metaldams

Who else could've relaced Shemp?  I've heard rumors about Mantan Moreland, and below you will find some of his less than G-rated comic material.  If you don't like Mantan, go serve yourself.   

[youtube=425,350]smrJ7459pj0[/youtube]

In reality, Columbia did not care about the shorts department anymore, so I doubt anybody would've been given a fair chance.  Besser had a few funny moments, but should've been able to find his own chemistry with Moe and Larry on stage instead of being thrown into mostly half-baked scripts.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline Giff me dat fill-em!

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It's my fault for not paying attention to the books, BeaStooge and GaryStooge, but there MUST be a short list of names Moe was considering before choosing Joe Besser ... back to the Stooge books.
The tacks won't come out! Well, they went in ... maybe they're income tacks.


Offline busybuddy

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It's my fault for not paying attention to the books, BeaStooge and GaryStooge, but there MUST be a short list of names Moe was considering before choosing Joe Besser ... back to the Stooge books.

Wasn't Healy stooge Mousie Garner considered at one point? I thought I heard somewhere that he rehearsed with Moe and Larry, but Moe found him "completely unnacceptable." 
I think Birdie will go for that!


Offline curlysdame


[youtube=425,350]smrJ7459pj0[/youtube]



Wooooow!  This guy is nuts!!!!  I can't believe I had never heard of him before.   :o :o   That wasn't blue, that was filthy!  That bit at the end about trying to make biscuits... wow!  Hahaha, thanks for posting this.  I might have to look this guy up.
"Imagine five things like us in one room??  I can't stand it!" - Curly (Time Out For Rhythm 1941)


Offline metaldams


Wooooow!  This guy is nuts!!!!  I can't believe I had never heard of him before.   :o :o   That wasn't blue, that was filthy!  That bit at the end about trying to make biscuits... wow!  Hahaha, thanks for posting this.  I might have to look this guy up.


I'm not henpecked.  I run mah house.  I tell m' wife to bring me some hot watAH...she gonna git me sum hot watah.  I can't wash no dishes in col' watah.


I've only seen him in one film, KING OF THE ZOMBIES (1941).  It's a cheapie Monogram horror film.  Mantan's the comic relief and the only reason why the film's worth watching.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline Dunrobin

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I've only seen him in one film, KING OF THE ZOMBIES (1941).  It's a cheapie Monogram horror film.  Mantan's the comic relief and the only reason why the film's worth watching.

Mantan Moreland was THE comic relief for the later Charlie Chan films turned out by Monogram.  The clip above is the first time I've ever heard him outside of the films, though.  I never realized he was an early Redd Foxx.   ;D


Offline metaldams

Mantan Moreland was THE comic relief for the later Charlie Chan films turned out by Monogram.  The clip above is the first time I've ever heard him outside of the films, though.  I never realized he was an early Redd Foxx.   ;D

I think I've only seen one Charlie Chan film in my life.  It was DEFINITELY a Monogram one (Sidney Toler, I think the guy's name is), but I don't think Mantan was in the one I saw.  It doesn't surprise me that he did show up in a lot of those Chan's, though.  Studios back then always used the same character actors.

He would've made an interesting Stooge.
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline curlysdame


I've only seen him in one film, KING OF THE ZOMBIES (1941).  It's a cheapie Monogram horror film.  Mantan's the comic relief and the only reason why the film's worth watching.

Coincidently, I own a copy of "King of the Zombies" but I've never actually watched it.   :P    I'll have to check it out this weekend.
"Imagine five things like us in one room??  I can't stand it!" - Curly (Time Out For Rhythm 1941)


Offline metaldams

Coincidently, I own a copy of "King of the Zombies" but I've never actually watched it.   :P    I'll have to check it out this weekend.

Are you into old horror movies?  KING OF THE ZOMBIES appears on zillions of those public domain horror box sets.  I probably own two or three copies myself!
- Doug Sarnecky


Offline curlysdame

Are you into old horror movies?  KING OF THE ZOMBIES appears on zillions of those public domain horror box sets.  I probably own two or three copies myself!

Yeah, definitely.  The cheesier, the better!  Personally, I like to collect them one at a time, instead of buying the box sets.  I like finding them at random at used record stores. 
"Imagine five things like us in one room??  I can't stand it!" - Curly (Time Out For Rhythm 1941)