Topic: "Besser eras" in other places (besides the Stooges!)

[Desmond Of The Outer Sanctorum]

This idea will probably either be considered brilliant or stupid! Anyway...

It has occurred to me that parallels to the "Besser era" can be found outside the Stooges, if one defines "Besser era" something like this: A team/group/show/etc. loses an irreplaceable performer, at a time when they're already well past their artistic peak; and the empty spot is briefly (<-- key word!) filled by a basically talented person who does what they can, but cannot succeed because (1) they don't quite fit in, and (2) nobody really could have filled the lost persons's shoes anyway.

A couple of examples I know of:
GENESIS (the band) - Phil Collins was kind of their "Shemp" (a member of the family, so to speak, who took over for the "Curly" of Peter Gabriel), and when he left, Ray Wilson was brought in as the new singer. Through fault mostly other than Ray's, this didn't go well and Ray was quickly shoved out.

CHICAGO (also the band) - Original guitarist Terry Kath accidentally killed himself in 1978, just as the band had severed ties with their longtime management. He was replaced by the very un-Terry-ish Donnie Dacus. The band managed to maintain their success somewhat through the next album, but the next one bombed, and Donnie was out.

Anyone know any other examples? Or is this just a really stupid question?

[metaldams]

The problem with calling Collins Shemp is assuming Collins has the cult following when in reality, it's Gabriel.  Ask the average guy what he knows about Genesis, and he'll say "Land of Confusion," not SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND.  Ask the average guy about third Stooges, and they'll talk Curly.

I've always said the best analogy is Black Sabbath singers.  Ozzy is Curly, the one the general public likes the most and was there for the most prolific and successful run.  Dio is Shemp.  Not as loved by the general public, but has a following amongst hardcore fans.  Some would even say Dio's better than Ozzy the way people say Shemp is better than Curly (i.e. Shemp's the better actor while Dio's the better singer).  Anybody after Dio is a Joe Besser for Black Sabbath (I say "for Black Sabbath" on purpose, as Ian Gillan's a legend in his own right).  Sabbath were confused and unstable (constant line-ups changes, overshadowed by Ozzy solo), the way Besser was confused and unstable (didn't last long as a Stooge, wouldn't take the hits a third stooge is supposed to take).

[Desmond Of The Outer Sanctorum]

The problem with calling Collins Shemp is assuming Collins has the cult following when in reality, it's Gabriel.  Ask the average guy what he knows about Genesis, and he'll say "Land of Confusion," not SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND.  Ask the average guy about third Stooges, and they'll talk Curly.

Well, within the "cult" of Genesis fandom, Collins is indeed the "Shemp" to Gabriel's "Curly." But you're right about what the "average guy" would say.

The problem with Black Sabbath's analogy (hey, I'm sure none of these are going to be perfect) is that they didn't have just one "Besser."

(BTW, mentioning Black Sabbath reminds me of Spinal Tap, because one phase of B.S. -- post-Dio, I think -- was said to be as close to S.T. as anything in real life ever was. And thinking of Spinal Tap makes me wonder if there was any significance to the temporary drummer in the movie being named Joe "Mama" Besser!)

[FineBari3]

I am trying to put this theory to test with drummers from The Who, but I do not think it will work.

The order goes: Keith Moon, Kenny Jones, Simon Phillips, and Zac Starkey. 

I think Kenny Jones works well as the 'Shemp' of The Who, but from then on, Simon Phillips is a phenomenal drummer, and I'd put Zac just below him.

[busybuddy]

I've made this comparison before, using the Rolling Stones. I feel that Brian Jones is a bit like Curly, the classic. And Ron Wood is like Shemp, different style from Brian Jones/Curly, but still fits in well. And Mick Taylor was like Joe Besser. Wonderful guitartist, wonderful comedian, but neither one of them really mesh well with the other Stones/Stooges.

[metaldams]

I've made this comparison before, using the Rolling Stones. I feel that Brian Jones is a bit like Curly, the classic. And Ron Wood is like Shemp, different style from Brian Jones/Curly, but still fits in well. And Mick Taylor was like Joe Besser. Wonderful guitartist, wonderful comedian, but neither one of them really mesh well with the other Stones/Stooges.

Mick Taylor played on STICKY FINGERS and EXILE ON MAIN STREET.

Ron Wood played on DIRTY WORK.

I guess none of these analogies (even mine) are perfect after all.

[metaldams]

(BTW, mentioning Black Sabbath reminds me of Spinal Tap, because one phase of B.S. -- post-Dio, I think -- was said to be as close to S.T. as anything in real life ever was. And thinking of Spinal Tap makes me wonder if there was any significance to the temporary drummer in the movie being named Joe "Mama" Besser!)

Ritchie Blackmore's entire career can also compare line-up wise, both Deep Purple and Rainbow.  Coincidentally, lots of guys who played with Blackmore also played with Iommi or Ozzy.

As for Joe "Mama" Besser, hands down the best Spinal Tap drummer.  I can only imagine how good INTRAVENUS DE MILO would'e been if he played on it.

[busybuddy]

Mick Taylor played on STICKY FINGERS and EXILE ON MAIN STREET.

Ron Wood played on DIRTY WORK.

I guess none of these analogies (even mine) are perfect after all.

I didn't mean quality of work, I meant persnolaity-wise. The Stones probably did their best work with Mick Taylor, but he just doesn't seem like a true-Stone to me. Just like Besser wasn't a good Stooge.

[Desmond Of The Outer Sanctorum]

I am trying to put this theory to test with drummers from The Who, but I do not think it will work.

The order goes: Keith Moon, Kenny Jones, Simon Phillips, and Zac Starkey. 

I think Kenny Jones works well as the 'Shemp' of The Who, but from then on, Simon Phillips is a phenomenal drummer, and I'd put Zac just below him.

I think Kenney Jones was very much a "Besser" of the Who. Anybody after that would be more of a "Curly Joe"!

[FineBari3]

I think Kenney Jones was very much a "Besser" of the Who. Anybody after that would be more of a "Curly Joe"!

Upon further thought, I agree with you!

[stooged and confused]

I think the actor Ted McGinley is the ultimate Joe Besser...he showed up on all sorts of TV shows that were past their prime or running on empty...examples are "Happy Days", "Love Boat", and most notably he replaced Al Bundy's neighbor, Steve on "Married With Children." He defines what a Joe Besser is!

[metaldams]

Can anybody relate to Metallica bass players?

Cliff Burton = Curly while Jason Newsted = Shemp.  Really don't think I need to explain this except the only difference is Newted served much longer than Cliff.

Bob Rock = Joe Besser.  Considered to be the guy who "ruined" Metallica as a producer and played bass on what is universally hailed as their worst album in ST. ANGER (and unlike ruined, I won't put worst in quotes).  As a bass player, had a short term much like Besser.

Robert Trujillo = Joe Derita  Not so much in personality, but in era played.  While I love DEATH MAGNETIC, Metallica is slightly entering their returning to roots/nostalgia stage, and Joe Derita was obviously nostalgia for Curly.  Trujillo plays in an era where the old songs are more featured in the set list while Derita acted in the era when old Stooge shorts were on TV a lot.