Topic: Uh, you gotta see this.

[shemps#1]

I have to be honest in that I dont agree with what you said, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion even if you don't agree.

God gave us free will so we have the choice of believing in him or not. I don't judge you for that, its your choice if you don't want to believe.

Like Metaladams said, As long as you dont judge me for my beliefs or openly mock me for what I believe in, we wont have any problems.
Besides, if we can have civil talks about baseball despite me being a Yankee fan and you a Red Sox fan I'm not that
worried about it. 

That's all I'm going to say on that and move on.

Diane, It was very nice what you said and the others are right, you didnt say or do anything wrong.
Glad you feel better 

I'm going to have to take umbrage with "God gave us free will so we have the choice of believing in him or not. I don't judge you for that, its your choice if you don't want to believe."

The mere phrasing of that sentence is indicative of your pushing your ideology and dogma on me by fitting me into it. There is no omniscient higher-power, therefore no "God", to give me the "free will" to believe in a god or any gods. I have the free-will to believe or not believe in whatever I may choose because I am a grown, learned, free-thinking individual who long ago personally addressed the question of which religion was right and personally decided that none of them were. I weighed all of the options and decided none of them held enough weight for me to become a devotee (the closest I ever came was dabbling in Buddhism in my youth, and although the skeptic in me cannot believe in the spiritual or metaphysical aspects of it, such as reincarnation, I did come away with some basic principals for living life that I still adhere to).

I think fellow atheists like Brent will back me up here, but "want" has nothing to do it. It's not that I "want to believe" but cannot, "want to not believe" or "don't want to believe"...I simply do not believe. Your mere wording either subconsciously or slyly does what you mentioned you wouldn't want me to do: mock my beliefs (or lack thereof). I write for a living and know the English language inside-out (for the most part anyway, no one ever truly masters it)

Now don't take what I am saying as confrontational; I posted what I did to start up a civil debate, not so others who disagree can think aloud in front of their computers and cautiously avoid the post. If you disagree then by all means say so. If we can talk baseball without devolving into "26 championships" vs "what have you done for me lately?" then we can surely discuss the oh so sacred cow of religion.

Sacred cows present a great challenge to me, and it's the only time I like to go cow tipping (and by that I mean discussing them).

[Moron4392]

Dear Sir: (XRaffle):

If I may Sir throw in my opinion on this what I call question of yours, you are correct the true thing is to keep the Lord in your heart and love Him and serve Him the way you feel is the way He wants you too, to me those other things are just Religious rituals and mean absolutely nothing.  The only true thing is that you love God and have your own personal relationship with Him.  As being new to any of this and from past knowings there is nothing in His Word about whether to eat meat or not during lent or anything else like that.  Sir the real thing is that you keep your own personal faith with God and all's well will end well.  Love you as a friend.

Diane Elizabeth Hoekstra
Moron4392

Sir just be yourself and think and believe the way you feel is correct.  

[Moron4392]

Dear Sir: (Shemps#1):

Sir why would anyone want to down grade you about your personal feelings of "God" or the subject of religion.  You never once said one unkind word towards believers so there is no reason we should say anything unkind to you.  Anyways in my opinion saying anything unkind to anyone not matter what the reason is not the right thing to do.  So Sir I have nothing against you at all.  So please relax and take it easy. Please Sir I do not like seeing anyone hurting in anyway, shape, or form.  Take care my friend.

Diane Elizabeth Hoekstra
Moron4392

[shemps#1]

You're reading me entirely wrong Diane. I'm not at all angry and do not need to relax or take it easy.  I'm always up for a civil discussion on religion, which is what I thought we were having.

You seem to be very sensitive on the issue...you may need to take your own advice. Relax, take it easy...I'm am not upset and neither is anyone else.

[xraffle]

Dear Sir: (XRaffle):

If I may Sir throw in my opinion on this what I call question of yours, you are correct the true thing is to keep the Lord in your heart and love Him and serve Him the way you feel is the way He wants you too, to me those other things are just Religious rituals and mean absolutely nothing.  The only true thing is that you love God and have your own personal relationship with Him.  As being new to any of this and from past knowings there is nothing in His Word about whether to eat meat or not during lent or anything else like that.  Sir the real thing is that you keep your own personal faith with God and all's well will end well.  Love you as a friend.

Diane Elizabeth Hoekstra
Moron4392

Sir just be yourself and think and believe the way you feel is correct.  

I agree with you 100%.

[Justin T]

I'm going to have to take umbrage with "God gave us free will so we have the choice of believing in him or not. I don't judge you for that, its your choice if you don't want to believe."

The mere phrasing of that sentence is indicative of your pushing your ideology and dogma on me by fitting me into it. There is no omniscient higher-power, therefore no "God", to give me the "free will" to believe in a god or any gods. I have the free-will to believe or not believe in whatever I may choose because I am a grown, learned, free-thinking individual who long ago personally addressed the question of which religion was right and personally decided that none of them were. I weighed all of the options and decided none of them held enough weight for me to become a devotee (the closest I ever came was dabbling in Buddhism in my youth, and although the skeptic in me cannot believe in the spiritual or metaphysical aspects of it, such as reincarnation, I did come away with some basic principals for living life that I still adhere to).

I think fellow atheists like Brent will back me up here, but "want" has nothing to do it. It's not that I "want to believe" but cannot, "want to not believe" or "don't want to believe"...I simply do not believe. Your mere wording either subconsciously or slyly does what you mentioned you wouldn't want me to do: mock my beliefs (or lack thereof). I write for a living and know the English language inside-out (for the most part anyway, no one ever truly masters it)

Now don't take what I am saying as confrontational; I posted what I did to start up a civil debate, not so others who disagree can think aloud in front of their computers and cautiously avoid the post. If you disagree then by all means say so. If we can talk baseball without devolving into "26 championships" vs "what have you done for me lately?" then we can surely discuss the oh so sacred cow of religion.

Sacred cows present a great challenge to me, and it's the only time I like to go cow tipping (and by that I mean discussing them).

Shemps, I was not attempting to either intentionally or unintentionally mock you in any way.

To me, my belief in God is a part of my thinking. I believe he created us so saying it to me is just statement of fact. Since you don't believe then
you don't agree with that. It's not my attempt to shoehorn you into anything or try and impose anything on you. If you think that then I'm sorry.

I said that its your choice if you believe he exists or not, So I dont get why it seems your bothered when I didnt attack you for being an Atheist and said
you lack of belief doesnt offend me. I've met plenty of people who have the same opinions as you do.

I don't have a problem with it, or with you.

I look at the world from a certain perspective due to my belief in God, and you look at it in a different way since you don't believe he exists.
I said it that way because thats what I believe, if you have a problem with that why didnt you just say "Well I dont believe God gave me free will,
because I don't believe he exists" when it seems like your reply is attacking me for what I believe in. From what you have said before I assume
that your not trying to but the way you said all that sounds like you are, perhaps I am a little confused about that.

But since you told Diane your not angry, I am going to take you at your word and believe you.

I like and respect you Shemps, so I hope that what I said here doesnt come off as disrespectful in any way.

[Justin T]

Dear Sir: (XRaffle):

If I may Sir throw in my opinion on this what I call question of yours, you are correct the true thing is to keep the Lord in your heart and love Him and serve Him the way you feel is the way He wants you too, to me those other things are just Religious rituals and mean absolutely nothing.  The only true thing is that you love God and have your own personal relationship with Him.  As being new to any of this and from past knowings there is nothing in His Word about whether to eat meat or not during lent or anything else like that.  Sir the real thing is that you keep your own personal faith with God and all's well will end well.  Love you as a friend.

Diane Elizabeth Hoekstra
Moron4392

Sir just be yourself and think and believe the way you feel is correct.  

I agree with you 100%.

As do I Diane, that was very well said. I used to be Catholic myself xraffle before I became born again and not beholden to any
denomination so I know exactly where your coming from. Diane is right in that Catholicism is full of alot or rituals and rules that are
man made in origin and not from the Bible.

Like she said, whats important is your relationship with the Lord.

[shemps#1]

Shemps, I was not attempting to either intentionally or unintentionally mock you in any way.

To me, my belief in God is a part of my thinking. I believe he created us so saying it to me is just statement of fact. Since you don't believe then
you don't agree with that. It's not my attempt to shoehorn you into anything or try and impose anything on you. If you think that then I'm sorry.

I said that its your choice if you believe he exists or not, So I dont get why it seems your bothered when I didnt attack you for being an Atheist and said
you lack of belief doesnt offend me. I've met plenty of people who have the same opinions as you do.

I don't have a problem with it, or with you.

I look at the world from a certain perspective due to my belief in God, and you look at it in a different way since you don't believe he exists.
I said it that way because thats what I believe, if you have a problem with that why didnt you just say "Well I dont believe God gave me free will,
because I don't believe he exists" when it seems like your reply is attacking me for what I believe in. From what you have said before I assume
that your not trying to but the way you said all that sounds like you are, perhaps I am a little confused about that.

But since you told Diane your not angry, I am going to take you at your word and believe you.

I like and respect you Shemps, so I hope that what I said here doesnt come off as disrespectful in any way.

...and now the tables turn.

Let's compare the sentences in question:

Justin: "God gave us free will so we have the choice of believing in him or not. I don't judge you for that, its your choice if you don't want to believe."

Jim: "There is no omniscient higher-power, therefore no "God", to give me the "free will" to believe in a god or any gods."

Other than the ideology behind them, they are not at all different.

My wording on that particular sentence was intentionally done to get the reaction that I did and for you to feel what I initially felt upon reading your post. Let me ask you the same question; why didn't you say "I BELIEVE God game us free will...etc" instead of stating it as fact? You see, I did the exact same thing you did (stating my belief) and you take it as an attack on yours. Now initially I thought you were attacking mine, which I stated in the previous post, but I'm a cerebral person who usually doesn't settle right away on initial reactions.

If I thought you were truly attacking my beliefs or disrespecting me I would have definitely let you know and torn you a new asshole, as any long time poster to this site who knows me can attest. I could also have answered the same way you answered me, with "I believe there is no god that created us...that is part of my way of thinking...etc", but again chose not to do so. I didn't do that because that would be imposing my beliefs on you by way of using them as a shield and an excuse to proselytize the virtues of atheism.

The English language is the most glorious language of them all Justin, and also the most sensitive. If you mishandle it it can bite you in the ass. Your beliefs and my beliefs are just that: beliefs. I cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no higher power no more than a Hindu can prove that there are multiple higher powers...or that you can prove that there is one higher power.

[Justin T]

...and now the tables turn.

Let's compare the sentences in question:

Justin: "God gave us free will so we have the choice of believing in him or not. I don't judge you for that, its your choice if you don't want to believe."

Jim: "There is no omniscient higher-power, therefore no "God", to give me the "free will" to believe in a god or any gods."

Other than the ideology behind them, they are not at all different.

My wording on that particular sentence was intentionally done to get the reaction that I did and for you to feel what I initially felt upon reading your post. Let me ask you the same question; why didn't you say "I BELIEVE God game us free will...etc" instead of stating it as fact? You see, I did the exact same thing you did (stating my belief) and you take it as an attack on yours. Now initially I thought you were attacking mine, which I stated in the previous post, but I'm a cerebral person who usually doesn't settle right away on initial reactions.

If I thought you were truly attacking my beliefs or disrespecting me I would have definitely let you know and torn you a new asshole, as any long time poster to this site who knows me can attest. I could also have answered the same way you answered me, with "I believe there is no god that created us...that is part of my way of thinking...etc", but again chose not to do so. I didn't do that because that would be imposing my beliefs on you by way of using them as a shield and an excuse to proselytize the virtues of atheism.

The English language is the most glorious language of them all Justin, and also the most sensitive. If you mishandle it it can bite you in the ass. Your beliefs and my beliefs are just that: beliefs. I cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no higher power no more than a Hindu can prove that there are multiple higher powers...or that you can prove that there is one higher power.

I may not be a great speaker or master of the English language, so if I didnt word things a certain way then so be it. I just wrote it, I could have said "I believe.." but I didnt and it wasn't some conscious choice.

But that aside, your a very well spoken person. I'm glad you didnt take any offense and that we can have a civil talk about our different beliefs

I'm glad we had this talk. It was a good learning experience for me.

[shemps#1]

I know it wasn't a conscious choice, that's why I pointed it out.

As someone who writes for a living I have learned that you have to write to your intended audience first and the general audience second. 

[Justin T]

I know it wasn't a conscious choice, that's why I pointed it out.

As someone who writes for a living I have learned that you have to write to your intended audience first and the general audience second. 

Very true, what do you write Shemps?

[shemps#1]

I don't want to divulge too much of my professional life publicly since it is secretive and supposed to have tight security. Other than what (barely) pays the bills I have had some short stories published and am working on a novel.

[locoboymakesgood]

I won't be getting involved in the religious debate at hand, but I will say, it's been awhile since I've seen a good debate with Jim. Reminds me of the old days.

[Moron4392]

Dear Sir: (Shemps#1):

Sir just got home from work and noticed your post.  You have me pegged down completely.  This is a sensitive subject with me because I feel there is a God and believe in Him.  It is hard for me to post on this subject so Sir I will as you mentioned take my own advice and and cool off.  Thank so very much sir for being understanding and helping me out.  Much appreciated.  It is that I do not want to offend anyone if I can help it sir or hurt them in anyway because that is not me.  Friends I hope?   

Thank you and please sir have a good rest of your week and your weekend up coming.

Diane Elizabeth Hoekstra
Moron4392