Topic: Stooges sets: An update (A look at Woman Haters)

[Hammond Eggar]

Giff and I were recently exchanging posts in a thread here regarding Columbia's recycling of the sets from major features for use in Stooges shorts.  In his 1973 interview, Larry Fine made mention of this, stating that sets from the 1934 feature, Twentieth Century were later used for the boys' Columbia debut, Woman Haters.  Twentieth Century co-stars John Barrymore and Carole Lombard.  I work for Hollywood Video and found a VHS copy this week.  I rented it out of curiosity, and to confirm Larry's comments.  Here's what I discovered.

The sets used in Woman Haters did, indeed, originate in Twentieth Century.  Barrymore plays a Broadway big-wig in the film.  Two scenes take place in his office.  The office set later became the meeting place for the Women Haters Club.  In one scene, Barrymore visits, what appears to be a bar.  There's not very many shots of the bar, but it appears to be the same set used in Woman Haters, where the Stooges all offer to put up their bankrolls.  The train sets, of course, were later used by the Stooges.  Barrymore's room is the same room in which Larry and Marjorie White sang "My Life, My Love, My All."  Here's the kicker, though.  African-American actor, Fred 'Snowflake' Toones, who plays a baggage handler in Woman Haters, played the exact same role in Twentieth Century.  Toones is the man who, when asked, refers to Marjorie White as "hot stuff."  The IMDb lists his role in Woman Haters as that of a baggage handler, while he's listed as a porter for Twentieth Century.  I find this all so interesting.

This all makes me want to find out the titles of all the other films whose sets were later used in Stooges shorts/films.  In Larry's interview he referenced the Frank Sinatra film Pal Joey, mentioning the apartment set(s).  Since that film was released in the late-1950s, I assume the set(s) were recycled for one of the Joe Besser shorts, but would need confirmation.  I still think a listing of STOOGE SETS would make a great addition to this site's database.  If anyone else knows of any other examples, please don't hesitate to post it here.  Thanks.

[busybuddy]

That's very interesting! That not only proves that they used sets from other movies, but may suggest that they did in fact write the scripts around the sets available! I think Larry mentioned that when he said "If they had a courtroom set, we did a courtroom scene." or something along those lines. The sets used in Fiddler's Three, The Hot Scots, and Squareheads of the Round Table were all written because Ed Bernds wanted to use the castle sets. What movie was those sets from?

 

[Hammond Eggar]

I also find it interesting that, not only did they recycle sets, they also recycled actors, as well.  While watching Twentieth Century, I was taken by surprise to see Toones as the porter.  We now know that he played the same role in Woman Haters.  I wonder if there are other examples of, not only sets being reused, but actors/actresses, too?

[locoboymakesgood]

I watched those intriguing videos last night. It was weird hearing Larry say "Damn", as well as his thoughts on Curly and Shemp. I'm assuming this interview was before Soup to Nuts was found, because the interviewer didn't know what it was and Larry mentioned how studios wouldn't keep copies of older films.

Basically what I got from it is that Columbia had sets they could use, so they based the script off that. I'm assuming he was talking about Disorder In the Court for one of them, since he mentioned if they had a courtroom then that's what the story would be about.

He held up really well in old age, even after his strokes. It's crazy to think what'd he'd be like if he were still around today.

[Hammond Eggar]

I'm assuming this interview was before Soup to Nuts was found, because the interviewer didn't know what it was and Larry mentioned how studios wouldn't keep copies of older films.

Actually, it was Gary Lassin (aka GaryStooge) who was responsible for Soup to Nuts resurrfacing.  If memory serves me, the film had been collecting dust in a UCLA film vault for quite a long time.  Gary's dedication and investigation led to it's initial restoration.  I was fortunate enough to attend the 1991 Three Stooges Convention in PA, when the film was screened for the first time in decades.  Ted Healy II, son of THE Ted Healy, was present for the screening.  It was an incredible night to say the least, if not less.  So, I really believe that without Gary, we probably wouldn't have a Soup to Nuts DVD.  Not to sing Gary's praise too much, but I really feel Stooges fans owe him a great deal of thanks.  Who knows?  Without his initial work, Soup to Nuts could have ended up lost, much like Hello Pop and Jailbirds of Paradise.  Here's a special 'thank you' pie for you Gary. 

[archiezappa]

Cool!  I didn't know that Gary had so much to do with saving that film.  That's one very important movie for us Stooge fans.  Thanks Gary!

I haven't seen the interview with Larry.  I wonder if they would include some of that footage on some of the Stooges DVD sets.  It would be nice to see interviews with the actual Stooges, as well as new interviews with surviving co-stars.

I had not heard anything about Ted Healy II.  I wonder where he is, now.  I wonder what he thinks about his dad's contributions to the Three Stooges.  I guess he thinks something of it, since he went to that screening of "Soup To Nuts" ya'll talked about.

I never cease to learn more, every time I get on this website!

[busybuddy]

I had not heard anything about Ted Healy II.  I wonder where he is, now.  I wonder what he thinks about his dad's contributions to the Three Stooges.

In Three Stooges:Men Behind the Mayhem, he talks about how if there was no Ted Healy, there would be no Stooges, which is obviously very true. But, if there were no Three Stooges, a lot less people would have heard of Ted Healy.

[garystooge]

So, I really believe that without Gary, we probably wouldn't have a Soup to Nuts DVD.  Not to sing Gary's praise too much, but I really feel Stooges fans owe him a great deal of thanks.  Who knows?  Without his initial work, Soup to Nuts could have ended up lost, much like Hello Pop and Jailbirds of Paradise.

Thanks for your kind words Hammond....while I can take some of the credit for Soup to Nuts, I certainly can't take all of it.  Much of the leg work was done by a fan club member named Jim Shemansky. I'm sure the old-timers have heard the story before, but I'll repost the details for the benefit of the newcomers.

When I took over the fan club in 1986, “Soup to Nuts” was presumed to be a “lost” film.  No Stooges fans had ever seen it and no one could locate it in any form. In the late 1980’s, the club undertook a concerted effort to try and locate the film. We got a tip from our friend, Entertainment Tonite film critic Leonard Maltin, that the UCLA Film & TV Archive might actually have a print of the film. The UCLA archive is a huge depository of films, kinescopes, etc, second only to the Library of Congress in Washington.

   In 1990, Jim Shemansky started making some calls and ultimately was able to make contact with Eddie Richmond, the curator at UCLA who told us that Fox had given UCLA the only remaining print of the film some time in the late 1960s. This was a nitrate print, which was the type of film stock used by the motion picture industry until the 1950s. Unfortunately, nitrate film is highly volatile and over time eventually turns to dust. Proper storage techniques can prolong the life of nitrate film, but eventually it will disintegrate, even when properly stored

    Anyway, Eddie told us that the nitrate film had actually been screened in UCLA’s own theater once or twice during the early 1970’s. However the film was beginning to deteriorate, so in 1977 the Archive wisely made a preservation negative (on modern acetate stock) from the nitrate print.  By the time we got in touch with Eddie in 1990, the nitrate print was completely shot. The good news was that they had this preservation negative, but the bad news was that you can’t watch a negative. Fox did not see any commercial viability in striking a positive print from this negative (there were no DVDs at this time, and even VHS was still in its infancy), especially since they viewed this as a “cult” film without any mass appeal. So essentially the film was still “lost”.

     At this point, I submitted a proposal to executives at Fox (who still owned the legal rights to the film): I would pick up the cost of making a positive print and in return, the fan club would get the exclusive right to screen it first, and then be able to borrow the print for use at our annual conventions. My hope was that once the print was made, down the road they’d release it on VHS so that those who couldn’t come to the conventions could get to see it.

    Anyway, the proposal was accepted, the print was made, and in 1991 we showed the film at our convention. It was really exciting watching that first screening and there were many surprises such as cameo appearances by Rube Goldberg and Billy Barty, Moe being billed as “Harry Howard” and 2 minutes of  “exit music” at the end of the film (music played over a dark screen as patrons were to be leaving the theater).  This may have been the first truly public showing of the film since the 1930s, but we don’t know for sure. We’ve screened it at several conventions since then. But more importantly, the existence of this print has enabled fans around the world to finally view the film. Although it was never released on VHS, it did air on AMC which enabled fans to view and tape it, and of course it was officially released on DVD a while back.

So that’s the soup to nuts on “Soup to Nuts”.

[locoboymakesgood]

I remember when AMC first originally aired it. I think it was part of the Preservation Film Festival, but I could be wrong. I remember the promo had a brief shot from the elevator dance routine. I taped it then and bought the DVD the day it was released.

I had no idea you were that involved with making the film available happen, Gary! That's insane that well I mean if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have this wonderful piece of Stooge history in my DVD library. Props to you!

[stooged and confused]

I'm pretty sure that the same train set in "Woman Haters" was reused for "A Pain In The Pullman." Yes?

[Hammond Eggar]

I'm pretty sure that the same train set in "Woman Haters" was reused for "A Pain In The Pullman." Yes?

You may have something there.  It would need to be confirmed, though.  When I watched Twentieth Century recently, it was obvious to me which sets had been recycled for Woman Haters.  None of the train sets in A Pain in the Pullman look like anything from Twentieth Century, but that doesn't mean the sets weren't reused for the later short.  If anyone can confirm this, it would be appreciated.  Thanks. 

Actually, I doubt those sets were reused for only one short.  Larry's mentioning of the apartment set(s) in Pal Joey got me thinking.  Among the later Shemp titles, and some Besser, as well, you'll find shorts set in an apartment.  Perhaps some sets were recycled for multiple shorts, as opposed to just one short?

Right now I'd like to start compiling a list of all the Stooges shorts, and finding the names of the films from which the sets originated.  We already know of the Twentieth Century/Woman Haters connection.  If possible, I'd love to do this chronologically, which would take me now to Punch Drunks.  Does anyone have any theories as to the source for the sets used in this short?  Was there a Columbia feature film in 1934 with a boxing theme?  Your help is appreciated.

[Giff me dat fill-em!]

Well, Mr. Eggar, it seems that your discovery of the Twentieth Century/Woman Haters link was a fortuitous circumstance. I went to "The Complete Three Stooges", but found no references therein concerning sets or locations for Woman Haters OR Punch Drunks. It appears you should put on your gumshoes for these efforts ...

[Hammond Eggar]

Well, Mr. Eggar, it seems that your discovery of the Twentieth Century/Woman Haters link was a fortuitous circumstance. I went to "The Complete Three Stooges", but found no references therein concerning sets or locations for Woman Haters OR Punch Drunks. It appears you should put on your gumshoes for these efforts ...

The connection between Twentieth Century and Woman Haters has already been discovered and confirmed.  I want to find other examples of films whose sets were later reused in Three Stooges shorts.  The way Larry talked in his 1973 interview made it sound as if all the sets used for Stooges shorts originated in various Columbia feature films.  To my knowledge, no Stooges author or researcher/historian has ever addressed this topic.  It won't be an easy task.  I would look at the year a particular short was produced/released.  Then I would conduct research on Columbia films of that year, based on what sets were used in the Stooges comedy, and the plot, as well.  For example, since Punch Drunks relates to boxing, I would look to see if Columbia released a feature in 1934 that also had a boxing theme.  Larry gave us a couple of examples already.  Now it's up to me, and anyone else interested, to do the real grunt work.

[stooged and confused]

I just went back and looked at "Woman Haters" and "A Pain In The Pullman" ...no question about it..it's the same train set!

[stooged and confused]

In an interview I conducted with Norman and Joan Howard Maurer, they discussed the re-use of sets from bigger budget Columbia films. Story lines/plots were created around them for utilization in Three Stooges shorts. They mentioned several times about the grand castle set from the film "Lorna Doone" that was used in "Hot Scots" with Shemp, for example.

[IFleecem]

In which Stooge short doe's Larry look at the camera and say "And don't forget to see Pal Joey folks"  I'm sure it was a Besser one.

I Fleecem 

[ThumpTheShoes]

In which Stooge short doe's Larry look at the camera and say "And don't forget to see Pal Joey folks"  I'm sure it was a Besser one.

I Fleecem 

Outer Space Jitters
"Bewitched." "Bothered." "...And Bewildered!"
"And don't forget to see 'Pal Joey', folks!"

[Hammond Eggar]

In which Stooge short doe's Larry look at the camera and say "And don't forget to see Pal Joey folks"  I'm sure it was a Besser one.

I Fleecem 

Speaking of Pal Joey, I was looking at the DVD box for the movie yesterday at work (Hollywood Video).  The film was issued in 1957, the same year as the Besser short, Hoofs and Goofs.  I've never actually seen the Sinatra film, but was curious about a photo featured on the back of the box.  It showed the inside of an apartment complex, with a staircase leading to a second floor.  This put me in mind of Hoofs and Goofs and the staircase seen in that short.  Perhaps H&G is the short to which Larry was eluding in his 1973 interview when he referenced Pal Joey.

[Jamison]

The castle sets were originally used for LORNA DOONE.

[metaldams]

The castle sets were originally used for LORNA DOONE.

Wait a second, is this from THE Jamison?  As in the one from the old days of Stooge posting?  How are ya?!

[Hammond Eggar]

In an interview I conducted with Norman and Joan Howard Maurer, they discussed the re-use of sets from bigger budget Columbia films. Story lines/plots were created around them for utilization in Three Stooges shorts. They mentioned several times about the grand castle set from the film "Lorna Doone" that was used in "Hot Scots" with Shemp, for example.

Thanks for the help Stooged.  With the "Lorna Doone" connection to "Hot Scots," and the already-mentioned "Woman Haters" example, we now have only 188 shorts left to research.  That said, with all the use of stock footage in the 1950s, the number of shorts left to research is probably much less.